the level you should expect from a 4 year old boys behaviour

Yes, I struggle with the notion that parents want to be their children's friends. Get your own friends and let them have theirs. There's a clear role for parents.

Absolutely agree about the 'friends'. Good point about the sugars too Mamie.

my problem was not wanting to be friends with my grand children
the main issue was the way a 4 year old was getting away with treating his mother, kicking spitting, punching, finding it hard to witness this and not say anything.....However the past 4 days has been interesting, as I have spent it with family including my 4 year old, and my other 4 G children.

this little chap has a brother, who don't kick or spit, but acts quite vague and moans and nags the whole time, I have seen signs of what I didn't want to mention.

The father would go bananas if you suggested this, as he says the reason they act like this, is because they are intelligent.

He never goes on holidays with them and my daughter has to haul them around on her own but there he is dictating to her where to take them

why don't husbands or partners never go on a holiday with their kids and wives or partners?
WATCH MY NEXT THRAD

These two G children goes to the best private school in London.
Don't get me wrong here, I have no issues with private schools
or London.

But in the company of their cousins, as we have spent Easter together,

they stood out, not in a good way, they think its ok to walk into some ones home and just help themselves with toys or anything else.
but the other children must not touch theirs.

They are my G children and I feel so sad for them.

Mishap, i think the behaviour of my Gs is so much worth than the ordinary behaviour. they had a particular nanny
that told me in confidence that the father had **
up the kids.
when they were with her they were alright, but when she left
they were awful and still is.

They have no respect for anyone or anything, and thinks its ok to do what they like.

The last time they stayed with me, i walked into a room to see. the particular were discussing holding up a lamp and smashing onto the wooden floor, looking at me and running away smiling.
I cleaned it up and never let on, why? because it would
have upset the rest of the holiday.
the night my D walked out to go and stay in a hotel,
She was screaming at me he is only 4.

Yes I even talked to my Gs about the way he was acting with his mother, saying his mum was my 4 year old a few years ago and she didn't treat me like he was treating my D.

he wasn't taking any notice at all, and I could see my daughter didn't like me telling him this.

I did try and talk to her wanting to have a chat about her about it, that was when she started screaming at me
he is only 4 he is only 4 and screaming you thick you know everything.

Are you OK amatterofopinon ? you sound really fed up about this. I can't say I blame you as they all sound unhappy. Very frustrating not to be able to do something?
I suspect sometimes private schools do not raise issues in the same way as state schools, because they are businesses - but if your DD won't discuss there is no way of knowing how they are getting on there in terms of behaviour.

Jess M I am not really ok at all, but getting over it very slowly
I am not the only one who cant stand to be near them,
a couple they are friendly with cant stand being near them either.
these 2 kids are totally in control, I spent a holiday with them and their friends my D hired a car, they were allowed to abuse that car any way they wanted, it was so very difficult to watch.
before my daughter came up to Scotland on this trip,
I thought I was doing ok preparing everything for them,
but the night she walked out with the kids at 8pm.
because I asked her if we could talk about the way the 4 Year old was treating her, the what he did in pizza land showing 2 fingers and a raspberry into the bargain,
she dragged him out and we went home.
she was screaming at me he is only four and other abuse
I was so upset to see him doing this.

Just found this amatter.
Unfortunately one never knows what goes on behind closed doors. ie. do the children ever see aggression from their father to the mother? This happened to me a long time ago, and my son obviously thought it OK to treat me the same way as his father did so he hit me etc.
How is your daughter coping with this? Have you thought of asking her the question? Have you ever seen any signs of domestic violence? This can be both physical and/or verbal and children pick up on these things very quickly, in fact if it has been going on all their lives, they probably think it the norm?

yes the father has a vile temper, and for some trivia my daughter my son was kicked out of the house, his house.
they walked the streets of London that night.
they didn't have any children then.
I remember telling her at the time to walk away

Good point reddevil3
It is very hard for a woman to admit that she is abused or bullied. There is a kind of shame we feel and we even lie to people who ask, saying things like "I hit my face on a cupboard". Even these days when it is so much more spoken about. It also takes a lot of energy and determination to leave, and you have to have somewhere to go.

Surely the school will have picked up on something by now?

Merl the school as far as I know hasn't picked up on anything,
they might have without me knowing.
a good point Reddevil I think he might be copying the father.
every time I see him being abusive to his mother, I always remember the nanny they had once telling me that the father had ** up the kids.

I may be prejudiced but I would not expect a private school to have such good safeguarding practice as public sector schools have developed because their links to the local authority (social services, educational psychology etc) are not as close. They would have to pay to get an educational psychologist in for instance.

thank you Reddev. How very silly of me not to see that he is in fact
copying his father, when I really think about it, this is the way his father
acts, when things are not going ok with him.
on the rare times he is at home at bedtime its laughable, it takes him 3 hours to put them down, and the older one who is in primary 3
wont go to sleep without a bottle with a baby teat on it.
I have been there when all this was happening, I hate it.

Oh dear I am dragging this thread for ages, but I would have gone mad without you all. Thanks x

It's OK. There are enough of us around. Don't go mad, keep posting, is my motto.

Can you possibly wangle a quiet, private time with your daughter- perhaps a walk in the park, but away from distractions?
She is bound to be very defensive and possibly aggressive (aggression is very infectious). It won't be any of your business etc. etc. but you have to convince her that you love her and cannot believe she is happy with her 'lot' in life.
See if you can find out what is going on from her point of view. She knows you are aware of the whole situation, so she might open up to you eventually.
She is probably frightened of her husband and that is no way to live a life, regardless of the pots of money available.
There has to be a way out for her and the children before he does irreparable damage to everyone's lives.
Even if she accepts the 'status quo' for herself, she might possibly admit that the boys need to be seen by a child psychiatrist?

Redddev I think he already has done that, these kids are disturbed.

but I cant discuss this with my DD, she would go bananas, the same way
she went bananas the night she left to go to the Hotel.
that night I said to her, I am so concerned about you being treated like this, when you work so hard, and look after your children so well, it hurts me to see them treating you like this. I said can we talk about it.
what he did in the restaurant, she went mad, so sadly I cant discuss
anything. yes shes frightened of the father and bullied by the kids,
they are in charge.

In that case there is nothing you can do except to let her know that you are there for her.
It's just that when you say that you have tried to talk to her about it, it has always been in a highly charged situation, ie. when the boys have been behaving badly/unacceptably.
Do you ever have conversations about everyday things and not the boys or the state of her marriage? If she is relaxed and calm and thinking about something else, you could catch her 'on the hop' and ask her if she is happy?
I think she is probably in a bad place at the moment, abused by all the family and sooner or later something is going to 'blow'.
Sorry to go on about it but - been there, done that, got the Tshirt..........

Reddev......what do you think of this. I am going back 3 years, she came to spend a few days with me, away from London.
I remember her getting a call from him to say he had gone and changed the car, ......no prior what colour would you like, what kind of car would you like. Oh no,, Just I changed car.
My DD didn't seem to be bothered but I felt uncomfortable, but kept my mouth shut.
I treated her to driving lessons in London, passed her test, but has not been allowed to drive that was 5 years

you couldn't make up whats to come up. Reddev.
last year they came up again, a phone call, he had bought her a designer kettle.
This awful kettle has to be put on the gas, takes forever to boil, then a whistle goes off, if you happen to be at the other end of the house this awful noise is going on.

she thought this was wonderful......only on arriving home all her pots and pans were not there and a few alumin, you will remember the scare about alimin a few years ago, I would only use Stainless Steel,

and you know what she didn't seem to be bothered, its totally laughable if it wasn't so very very sad.

She obviously has a strong mind of her own, given the violent temper shown to you when you express your very real concerns. ie. she is no 'pushover'

In which case I find it difficult to understand how she can let this man control her life- even down to getting rid of her pots and pans with no consultaion- we all have our own favourite kitchen 'bits'. Let alone the car fiasco.
Poor girl, to be putting up with this.
I had a controlling, violent husband as you may have gathered but it wasn't until we moved abroad on a foreign assignment that I realised what I was allowing to happen to me. Having met several other couples, I saw that they were all nice to each other (unheard of in my house) and got to wondering where I had gone wrong. But waited another 10 years before I did something about it. My DD seems to have come through OK, but DS still has problems due to his father's treatment of the family.
As you say, so sad. to cheer you up a bit.

The school may not be commenting because there may be no problem there. The sort of structured environment of school is just what they need and they may respond well to this while they are there.

I am sorry to be negative, but I seriously do think there is very little you can do. Our children choose their partners for good or ill and sometimes we can only stand back and watch - it is very frustrating.

It does not seem possible to broach all this with your daughter without mnaking things potentially worse by alienating yourself from her - and she needs you.

Do you ever have these children on their own as individuals? I have had one of my GSs alone for a while and it was a productive time.

I think you need to maintain your standards and speak out if they do something in your home or to your belongings that you feel is wrong - but actions towards their own parents are a bit of a no-go area when it comes to "interfering."

I enormously sympathise with your distress when your DD is abused by the children - I have watched this and found it hard.

Children will behave badly if the parents are not presenting a united front; and they learn abusive and disrespectful behaviour very quickly.

You must be so fed up with all this - I do think that you are doing the right thing by just being there. If your DD ever feels she can open up to you it i it is more likely she will do so if you have just quietly stuck by her and kept the channels open - however frustrating it is for you to watch all this happening.

I wish you every good luck with this - do keep posting.

I am now closing this thread, and moving on.
Your help kept me from going over the edge.
A Very Big Thanks To You All.