the level you should expect from a 4 year old boys behaviour

Yes, mishap. I've said to each of mine at various times that I don't care if they don't like me but I do care if they don't respect me. Respect comes first, then liking.

Just another thought - too many parents want to be their children's friends - sometimes our children have to hate us in order to know that we love them enough to risk them hating us. I used to say to my children "If I didn't love you so much, I would not care how you behave, but I want the best for you."

I like your comment about showing you will stand up for your kids, orca. Spot on. It is a good backup for them to have, knowing that.

When I've had a long drawn out 'fight' (not physical) with one of mine, my approach has been: OK, how long do you want this to take? It's up to you, but one thing is certain – I'm going to win. So, shall we make it half an hour, or do you want to go on all day?

Yes, you do need a certain confidence. It's a good thing to have, and one's kids learn it for later use themselves. I learned mine from my parents and they from theirs. Lucky then, me.

I think you have to have some kind of conviction about what is right as well, or at least what is not right. And you need a robust self respect. It's not easy for anyone.

amatterof,

Just stick to your boundaries in your house - what DD does in her home is not yours to control unfortunately.

I have said to my GC before now "What you do in your house is none of my business, but when you are here you do not bounce on the sofa/hit your brother/abuse your mother/whatever. These are our rules" They take it in their stride.

I share your concern about children speaking rudely to their parents (our children!) - I hate it.

Children soon get to know who is firmer with boundaries and who isn't. Just ask them. They'll live with the differences, but will start to question why there are different boundaries, whilst exploiting the inconsistencies to their advantage. We all do it, don't we? Problem is, children can get frustrated and angry when they meet with such inconsistency. That's not fair on them.

I also remember a friend's son who was good at home and at school and horrendously badly behaved with his grandparents. Nobody could understand why he behaved badly in different situations and with different people.
Turned out they were giving him lots of sugary food and drinks with additives and he was hyper as a result. They changed the food they gave him there and he was fine.
Good luck OP, enjoy your family.

You are absolutely right orca and bags that good parenting is about setting boundaries etc. But if someone has not had the software installed and does not have another parent around to help it is really tough to learn how to do it better, in the teeth of the gale as it were. I really think it is not on to just blame someone who is not coping.
I remember my DS aged 12 remarking to me about managing the behaviour of my 2 year old niece. He had spent a week with his grandmother and the 2 year old. Then he spent a week with me. "you are so much better at managing her than Granny is". I put it down to the fact that I had learned a wider range of skills and strategies with my lively boys. She always said her children were very easy - and she lived in an extended family with other adults around to dilute as well. So some people get different learning opportunities along the way .

Some people do not have the confidence to say no to their kids amatterofopinion - and it is no good saying no if someone else in the family says yes.
All the best and try to enjoy your time with them.

Exactly Bags. I'd worry about a child who never tested the boundaries.
If a child knows you can stand up to him/her then they know you can stand up for them too. This gives them emotional security.

Well said at 0724, orca. Have just had such a test with Minibags. Very stressful emotionally for the parent(s) but worth it in the end. A lot has been achieved in that last few days and Minibags seems happier for my clear boundary marking. And she has been completely matter of fact about it to her friends and even a teacher. Kids accept reasonable "grounding" with good grace, I find.

amatterof I think it's when who has the book

Hi JessM, bit about my self, yes I was the single parent of children,
through sad circumatances,
and proud to say they all have turned out very well, with their various professions.( getting a bit emotional at this stage Jess)

I managed to pick myself up and get a degree, and now enjoying life.

I think because we didn't have a lot of money, they appreciated every little thing we could afford, like saving up and taking them on holiday.
and a funny funny thing here Jess, my Dau with the child we were discussing
is far far better off than any of my other children.
money is no object they only have to ask and they get.

I am no expert, and I know other people are rich and don't have a problem with their children.

would love to say a lot more, without revealing who we are.

My daughter is a hard worker and very organised, but is swimming against
the tide trying to apply order.

The fact that the father prefers to be at work, rather than be with them on holiday, or at any time for that matter, speaks for itself.

But instead dictates from a distance where she should take the children, it totally infuriates me. don't get me wrong I get on with him.

a lot of you have said the 4 year old and his brother is crying out for bench marks, to be applied this is so true.

I know people who have grown who was allowed to get and have anything they wanted.
they are sad adults who cant relate to people, expecting everything to come to them. and they are very selfish individuals.

JessM I never had any problems with my children. It was made clear what was acceptable behaviour and what was not. Yes, I suppose I did have an inner 'toolkit', passed on from my own parents who reared four children successfully. All children test their boundaries, you just deal with it immediately and consistently. Much poor parenting is down to inconsistently, laziness and/or fear of upsetting the child. Part of a parent's job is to teach a child to cope with the stress of having their will thwarted in a kind and loving environment.

Thanks Orca I will leave the book kicking around. thank.

Let gn be that something. You can come here.
Orca don't duck, discuss instead. When you were a young parent (I am assuming you were a parent at some stage but you have not, I think, revealed a lot about yourself) did you find that you had a handy inner toolkit of parenting skills that were fit for every behaviour problem your children came up with? And what kind of behaviours did they come up with to test you?
It is one thing saying "the parents' behaviour is creating the problem" but you are coming across as if you think they are to blame, which is something else entirely.

amatterof good luck

Gransnet is just wonderful, and what a bunch of wonderful people you are,
Your wisdom, your good advice.
my daughter is coming back to day with the kids
then we are travelling to spend easter with family.

The behaviour problem, is still very much there, and D is still insisting its normal for a 4 year boy to act like that towards her.

They are with me for the next 10 days, and i will have to shut my eyes and my ears to anything round about me. I dont ever take medic for anything ,
but yesterday i was thinking Jee i need something to see me through the next 10 days, but i wont, but i hope some of you will be thinking, yes i know where you are coming from.

Orca . I've got a great book about eliciting and shaping desired behaviour. It's called 'Don't Shoot The Dog' and is really about modifying human behaviour, but can be used for dogs and kids alike. It lays the responsibility for setting and keeping to boundaries firmly with the parent/owner

Just had a thought. I've been posting on the Dangerous Dogs thread and most people agree that it's the owners who are usually at fault for not socialising and disciplining the animals and teaching them boundaries.
So surely the same rules apply to children...well similar rules, though come to think of it the 'sit stay' rule would be very useful.
[Duck for cover emoticon]

My thoughts exactly positivepam

Just another thought, I also agree with jo8 it is up to the parents what they put up with and it isn't worth the OP falling out with her DD. Life will always find a way of sorting itself out and if these children have two parents who love them, that is half the battle ay?

I have to agree with nanaej this child can obviously control his behaviour when he is with certain people and I do find it a little worrying that sometimes it is easier to look for a complicated answer as in, it could be a medical condition rather than possibly it is just a four year old boy who is finding his boundaries and getting away with stuff with his parents due to whatever reasons but who does not get away with it with some people. He isn't daft ay? I think the DD in this case knows her mum is right but, like many of our DDs does not want to admit it and is embarrassed that she cannot control the behaviour or finds it easier not to. I have a DGS and DGD who are both four and yep they are just learning what they can get away with and what they cannot and boy sometimes it can get a lttle noisy ha ha. I would say, don't worry too much and I know it is easier said than done but I think it will be ok and this little boy will be fine.

thank you nanae i would casually say that i have read this somewhere

i dont critisise my daughter, far far from it we get on very well

Have they and you tried encouraging him to behave well rather than punishing him for bad behaviour.

It seems to be that if both parents have busy jobs and possibly little time for the children that he may be behaving badly to try and get them to give him the time and attention a child of that age needs from his parents.

My DH travelled a lot on business when my children were small but he gave them his time and attention when he was home and we always had family holidays and went away as a family at weekends to visit friends and families. I have asked DC, as adults, whether DH's frequent absences bothered them and they said no, they couldn't remember a time when he didn't travel and that when he was home he was a lovely Daddy. Or as DD put it, tongue in cheek. It was nice Daddy and Scary Mummy because as the always present parent I was the one that dealt with all disciplinary and parental control issues.

orca that is more than a bit harsh. I remember my DIL who is a competent grown up was thrown by her DS suddenly turning from a relaxed baby into an aspiring tyrant during his third year. Some people just don't have the inner resources to draw on when this happens. I don't think I did when I was young. GS eventually turned corner when I was able to stay for 5 weeks and take some of the pressure off, and do some behaviour work with him. (And potty training, exhausting!) And my DIL has a firm and supportive husband who is very involved in kids and backs her up. Even a year later she would still give in and carry him sometimes - anyone less in need of being carried is hard to imagine.
I have seen another friend cope with a long-hours husband who thought she should do all disciplining and that he could just be one of the (slightly naughty) kids if he managed to turn up before bedtime. Not easy for a mum.