the level you should expect from a 4 year old boys behaviour

yes ann that sounds spot on, one parent again the other.
mentioned before that he is distructive, on their last visit i walked into a room to see him holding a lamp up and smashing it to the floor,
i gathered the bits up and never told my daughter as she would have been upset. he seemed to think this was funny which worried me.

It sounds as if he is playing one parent off against the other. It's a recipe for disaster if they can't be consistent in their dealing with him, but sadly you are in a difficult position and, unless your advice is asked for, it's better to keep it to yourself.

no problem with the school just with mum and dad.

no star chart, but the threat of 5 mins off cartoon time ect constantly over the past 2 years is still ongoing with no improvment in the hehaviour

if the mum doesnt buy him something because of bad behaviour, the dad gets it for him at the end of that very day.
i know they are not doing him any favours, as i dread to think of what kind of an adult he will become

yes he does have a demanding job, they never have a propr holiday or spend time together like normal people.

The thing is - can he behave "well" in school or not. If only out of school it sounds as if it is just a bad habit he has got into with mum. But unless you are asked for your advice then there is little that you can do. Must be very upsetting.

As ga says, this is the age when they test the boundaries - it's the job of a four year old! The adults' job is to consistently show him where the boundaries are. They aren't doing him any favours if they don't check his behaviour or remove him so he doesn't keep doing it when he is rude and aggressive.

Has he got a star chart with desired behaviours on it, so he can earn treats like activities with mum and dad or the return of confiscated toys from times of undesirable behaviour? Something visible that shows him his progress works for most kids.

I take it that this child has a father at home? It does seem as if he needs some father-son time. Does dad have a very demanding and time-consuming job?

This is just speculation, but is this perhaps a case of very busy parents who might feel guilty at not spending enough time with their children and because they feel so guilty they are over indulging them?

I can understand how distressing it is for you to see this, particularly as your daughter seems unhappy about discussing it with you.

Do you know if its both parents who seem to have problems dealing with the children?
Could you get a chance to talk to your daughter in a supportive way when things have calmed down?
It sounds like they need the very basic super nanny advice! His parents seem to have lost the plot about excercising normal controls and being overindulgent and he needs some tough love.

Oh sorry! I got it wrong about who went to stay in a hotel. Not thinking straight!

thank yo Orca, when i am alone with him hes ok and knows not to do any bad behaviour, its his mum and dad he dosnt seem to have ant respect for them.

They are never short of money, are they maybe doing too much for them.

yes i have talked to my GS about how he treats my daughter with no results
hes also very distructive, could this be part and parcel about his behaviour.
I hate to think what it is going to be like for her when hes older.

Your daughter is obviously very touchy that she is having problems. How does your GS behave to you if you are alone with him?

Can you talk to the boy about how he behaves ? If he is bright he may feel bad about his behaviour.

You must have been really hurt when D went to stay in a hotel, take care.

Are you in Scotland now? In a hotel?

You're on a hiding to nothing if his older brother is not much better. Just be thankful he goes home and doesn't inflict his awful behaviour on you all the time. You've let your daughter know how you feel and it didn't do any good so don't risk any more bad feeling between you because she probably knows you are right but doesn't want to admit it.

Oh my goodness! You really mustn't let it get to you like this. Try not to say anything if it's going to backfire on you like that. It's up to his mum and dad to decide whether they want to put up with the behaviour or try to change it. It could be just personality. But whatever is the cause, if putting your views across is going to cause you that much hurt, then it isn't worth it.

Quite honestly, I think you would be better off spending the time with your other grandchildren.

Actually this sounds pretty normal to me. By the age of four children have usually got over their 'tantrum' stage, but are starting to test the boundaries of what is acceptable. The key is what the adults around them do about it. My three year old grandson (usually very well mannered) fell over yesterday just as he was about to enter the school, a kindly mum was nearby and immediately started to fuss him and he responded with a shouted, "Don't talk to me, go away" before crying and lashing out at my daughter. I suspect he was simply embarrassed, but my daughter was devastated and got him into school where he carried on the bad behaviour. Fortunately the teaching assistant is an old hand and packed mum off out of the way and we later heard (the school phoned my daughter because they could see she was really shocked ) that he had quickly calmed down and apologised.
amatterof I expect if your daughter is firm with him he'll eventually come to realise which behaviours are unacceptable.

How does he treat you? His father? His older brother? His teachers? Or it it just his mother he has no respect for?

yes i have tried to tell her how much it upsets me to see her being treated like this with awful results storming out on me, having come up all the way to Scotland, and went to stay in an hotel, my heart feels broken.

there is no unsettled background but the father works a lot on their own business, does try and spend time with the children, but they never seem to ever go away as a couple on a normal holiday,

Thank you for that , no he is not an only child he has a big brother who is not much better,

I wouldn't think the school he goes to would have much to do with it, not at the age of four. But the fact they can afford to send him to private school does sound as though they are not short of money. Is he spoilt? Is he an only child?

Four is a funny age. They find their feet around that age and they can start to assert themselves, sometimes too much. But he can't be allowed to get away with really bad behaviour.

Of course, all children have their own personalities. Because your other grandchildren don't behave in this way, doesn't mean that this one won't. It will be difficult for your daughter - and his dad of course - but they will just have to try to be firm with him. He may grow out of it, but he may not. Some children just are like that. He'll turn out ok in the end.

This is not normal behaviour and your daughter should not accept it. The little boy obviously has been allowed to get away with it for some time and it won't be easy to change. Is he an only child? If not, how do his siblings behave? Is he well behaved at school? What is his attitude towards other children and adults? Has he had an unsettled background, such as parents splitting up, or arguing in front of him?
I don't think you are over reacting, but I am not sure what you can do,unless you have the kind of relationship with your daughter which will allow you to tell her how you feel about his behaviour.