to want to get out the bleach?

Sounds like there's more worrying you than the state of cleanliness of the house. I think I'd be tempted to do a little something...perhaps wash the kitchen floor or wipe down a few work tops. See what the reaction is. Say there was nothing on TV and you were bored. Say 'hope you don't mind?' and take it from there.

Thank you for your kind words all, it's the first time I've voiced my worries to anyone but DS2 &3, who feel the same. I think it was just a shock last night, as I hadn't been there for a while on my own with them, and I had time to notice....usually DS, DiL and others are around, so we're chatting or I'm playing with the kids.

They have tried having a word with their big brother (they both work hard for what they have and I know that rankles too), and DS3 has, on more than one occasion, voiced his opinion quite frankly to their faces...but it all just washes over them.

Last time I sat the children at theirs during the day, I did get stuck in and cleaned the toilets, bathroom, kitchen and hallway. Neither of them commented when they got back, but I told them anyway, saying I'd started off cleaning up muddy footprints in the hall, and just got carried away!

I do have the GC here a lot, especially in the summer, or just take them off out for the day on 'adventures'. We always have a fantastic time, and they are always as good as gold (and they go to sleep without fuss in a dark, quiet room).

They are such a joy in my life, and I am very aware that if I rock the boat, I may lose them, so I have a very sore tongue (all that biting) and just love them as much as I can.

It is great that they have such a committed grandparent so close at hand. That is a big positive.

I can only say well done indeed. What an asset you must be to them! They will treasure the time they spend with you.

Sounds like you're doing everthing you can - and those little ones are lucky to have you! Try Bonjela on that tongue!!!

I'm reminded of an unmarried friend of mine who had 5 children, lived on benefits and was very keen to tell everyone how she raised her children by herself. I would sometimes remind her about the millions of taxpayers who were really raising her children, but she never seemed to make the connection!

DH and I have done washing-up and cleaned cookers in student digs, I don't think the occupants noticed. When I am looking after GC in their own home I wash up clean surfaces and sweep kitchen floor after meals. DIL keeps bathrooms spotless so I have never felt the need to clean them except when she was in hospital having GD2.

grateful I would keep doing exactly what you are doing.

I muck in whether I am at my daughters' homes or my DIL's. I think they all appreciate my help, I know they all expect that I will help.

This seems to me to be a pretty unconventional and not especially desirable set-up (but perhaps it's not that unusual).

I think the main question has to be, are the children reasonably well balanced and happy? If they are, then try not to worry about it too much. I know it's easier said than done to keep quiet when you feel that their lives are fairly chaotic, but sometimes apparently "normal" households are the least normal of all.

It sounds like you are a loving, and much-loved grandparent, and your grandchildren enjoy your company and listen to you - that's worth a lot in itself.

Do your son and daughter in law receive disability living allowance for the children? If so, there must be proof that the children, or at least one of them, has a diagnosis of one of the conditions you've mentioned. Not that behavior issues are a condition on their own, more that they are associated and can be a very big part of the Autism and ADHD you mention. For sure ADHD is a co-morbid of Autism, as is Dyslexia (amongst many other things) for example, and its very common to find co-morbids amongst the family of those who are on the spectrum.

In my own family we have my son who is severely autistic, has tourettes, and additional mental health problems. Amongst his siblings we have dyslexia and central auditory processing disorder along with my husband has very sensitive hearing. It is also joked in amongst us that my husband has ADHD. My 8 year old granddaughter is also dyslexic and has sensory issues along with auditory processing issues that manifests itself as really sensitive hearing. None of the people I've mentioned are on the spectrum, but they all have features/co-morbids of the spectrum due to its genetic source. As for my son who is autistic, he's not dyslexic, but he is fact a fluent reader and reads better than his brother who is 30 and in a professional career. Its a funny thing this Autistic Spectrum Disorder and I can put my hand on my heart and say that if I came across someone on the spectrum I would be able to see traits of it in those around them. In fact with an experienced eye people can meet others and walk away saying, I think there is autism in the family - and more often that not be correct.

And just a thought on the lights you mentioned - it may be an attempt at sensory integration therapy. It could be something they've heard about and they've decided to give it a go without really knowing much about it/how to do it properly/if its the kind of therapy the children need.

I just thought I would post this in the hope it may help you to consider the situation you see is perhaps not really what it is, that you can think about what to do next regarding the family circumstances.

Thanks Hannoona, I understand completely what you are saying. I work in a special needs school so know that it comes in all forms. To be honest, we are all on the spectrum somewhere, little traits that can be construed should you wish to.
But I have a very clever, manipulative DiL, who knows everything she needs to about what she 'wants' for GS2, and treats him accordingly, and tells him constantly that he is autistic and different. He is, in fact, a highly intelligent child who has never been told NO at home, with a few learnt behaviours courtesy of DiL.
The lights are very stimulating and prevent them from settling well, therefore backing her up when she tells people they are terrible sleepers, and hard work...a laugh in itself as it is DS who is up with them, not her. She announced many years ago (when DS was still working) that she has them all day, so he can have them at night, irrespective of whether he had to go to work the next day or not.
She insisted on seeing 3 different paediatricians with GS2, until she found one who agreed with her diagnosis in order to get him into SEN school (in order to get DLA)...it backfired because of his intelligence, and he is now in mainstream (supported), but she is now making BIG waves there, encouraging his bad behaviour, and telling anyone who will listen how bad a school it is! He is, in fact, doing very well, but their money was cut when he moved into mainstream...pretty soon someone will have to go out and get a job to maintain their lifestyle....can you see where I am going with this?

Working where I do, and seeing how hard it is for some of these parents, most of whom also hold down a job I might add, is what makes me angry more than anything. Why would you want this for your child? Why would you decide before they are even walking and talking, that this is what they are going to be (she had a friend with a severely disabled child at the time, sadly passed now, and jumped on what she saw as a useful 'bandwagon' for all the wrong reasons)

They are aware that I disapprove of what they are 'doing' to their children, but it is not something we will ever talk about openly, but, now and then, I can't help but make a little comment.
I did about the lights the other night, just mentioning that it was far too much, and overstimulating at a time when they should be calming down and resting, pointing out that once I'd turned it all off, they were asleep in minutes!
It is passed off as 'Mum and her funny ways'.
All I can say is whatever!
I'll just keep on being 'Granny' and enjoying my time with them, which, as I say, is always fun because there are boundaries with me that they are happy to adapt too!

Sounds a bit munchauseny, your DIL -

Every time I babysat DGS the kitchen was always a real mess and I got stuck in and cleaned it, now I live in their Granny flat DGS usually comes to me, I recently walked into DDS part of the house to find DSIL in the kitchen muttering 'your Mum used to do this', He always had a big smile on his face when I had done it in the past. DD is happy with any help. It is quite nice to know I am appreciated.

Gratfulgran, Im needing eyes in the back of my head today so if its ok I'll just do a quick reply.

You have one grandchild with a S&L delay, and another one with a diagnosis of autism. There is a connection between the two so it really would appear there is something going on in the family.

Quite often those who are at the HF end of the spectrum can be misdiagnosed for years due to how difficult a diagnosis can be. I I think I would just assume that when your DIL saw the first two paeds they didn't have the experience required to make the diagnosis but the third did, and maybe because by the time he was seen by the third Dr. there was more of an indication that the wee one was on the spectrum.

So many children at the HF end of the spectrum don't even get a diagnosis until they go to secondary school because that's when it can become obvious - maybe even hormones have a hand in it. There are also parents who have gone through life feeling not quite right about themselves and its only when their child gets a diagnosis that they have a light bulb moment and realize they are also on the spectrum. Sometimes however it takes a partner to say - that's you as well. I currently have a friend on Mumsnet who's children are going through the diagnostic procedure, one is about 10, and my friend said to me the other day - I recognize so many of these traits in myself.

Re the DLA - having it taken away only means that the persons needs are no longer such that they require the allowance, it doesn't mean that the diagnosis was wrong. And going to an SEN school doesn't mean a person will get DLA, the two do not go hand in hand. I have chums who's children are in SEN schools and one young HF girl has the DLA at the top rate, another chum who's son is like my son gets a reduced rate, and other chum gets nothing.

You say you work in an SEN school - are you a teacher? If so it will be easy for you to disquise parenting advice as 'autism strategies' ;) and hopefully help put a bit more order into your DGC's lives.

There just seems so much bad feeling in your family, with so many things getting mixed up in the wash, one thing that's obvious though is your very obvious love for your grandchildren.

Just to add - the Munchausens mentioned by someone regarding the mum. It wouldn't be Munchuasens, it would be Munchausens By Proxy, which thankfully is very very rare.

I feel very sad reading your posts gratefulgran54 but the thing that stands out beyond everything is the love that you obviously have for your grandchildren. They are truly lucky to have such a caring, loving grandma. I agree with many of the posts that say there really is very little you can do with regards to cleaning the house as DIL's are a very different kettle of fish to DD's when it comes to "unwanted" help. My DD lives alone, she works full time and comes home and bakes a cake or makes a birthday card or something crafty. She very rarely comes home and cleans! Her house is a bit messy (piles of books, clothes etc.) but never dirty. She loves cooking and fussing about with bits of card but hates housework. When if I tackle her she says "Oh mum, you are so anal about houseowrk. Don't forget I have a life beyond housework", meaning I think that I don't .

I would find it very hard to offer unwanted help to my DiL who has three small children and works full time, as does my son, but I do look after the children quite a lot so I suppose I am helping her in a different way. I know they are always short of money and so one thing I can do is help to decorate (which I enjoy doing) which in turn gives me chance to have a good old tidy up. I also buy cleaning products when they are on 3 for 2 or whatever and hand them over saying something like "I know how expensive these things are so thought I would take advantage of the special offer". My DiL is a very good mother. The children have been brought up to be very active and outdoorsy and are always doing some activity or other.

I think its sad if your son and DiL choose not to work using the childrens problems as an excuse. What kind of lesson are they providing the children? Is it possible they are trying to find work and there isn't anything available?

Yes, of course , by proxy and rare in its full blown sense. But I have met mums who appeared to have a touch of , shall we say, hypochondria by proxy.

If you are only babysitting just ignore it. If staying awhile just clean a bit by way of ' being helpful'. I think we tend to forget what it was like when we had young children and a job. I bet our homes weren't so spick and span as they are now. As long as your GC children are well cared for and happy to hell with the rest.

Thanks for all your kind words, but I must just add that, in spite of all my worries, I have a good relationship with DiL, as I am very careful to temper my opinions. Yes, I do come out with the odd thing, but I always compare it to a situation I've come up against before and how I dealt with it at the time, so more of a helpful suggestion than a criticism, and I can honestly say that in the 10 years she and DS1 have been together, we have never had an argument, or even a spat. We agree to disagree on some things, but I am always willing to hear her side of anything.

If anyone hears how I really feel about some of it, it is DS1 when away from the family (he and I have little ding-dongs about it now and then, but as we have a strong relationship, it's never for more than half an hour), or DS3 who is my sounding board, as I am his (he is bi-polar, but is good at recognising when he needs support, and will always phone me sooner rather than later).

Who'd be a mother, hey?

I think apart from washing a few pots in the sink I wouldn't do anything or say anything about the state of the house.
It's really not your place to instruct your daughter in law on the your standards of cleanliness.

I'm a very tidy person and have a place for everything but only clean once a week my daughter and daughter-in-law are very untidy but I wouldn't be so rude as to tell them how to run their homes.

As individuals we are all different and if your son and grandchildren are happy in this environment that should be good enough.

If on the other hand the children are being neglected then I would speak to your son by choosing your words very carefully.

Grateful Gran, It must be very hard for you. My mum had bi-polar disorder, as does one of my husbands sisters. What with that and the schizophrenia in his family I'm really surprised we only have one child on the spectrum given how we know there is an increased risk of autism in families where those disorders are present. I can recall being asked about the conditions years ago when my son was being diagnosed but it really is only within the last few years that the information has been available out there to read. I know I only came across the hard fact evidence when researching my sons deterioration about 4 years ago, he has symptoms of both bi-polar and schizophrenia.

I hear what you are saying about getting on with your DIL but there is such anger/dislike/disrespect in your posts that I think a person would need to be a saint to be able to hide it in real life. And I'm a bit like you - I say things to my kids and try to link it to myself and my experiences and I think I've made a great job of it but its usually when 'Im driving away that I realize - mmhhmmm that didn't come out quite as innocently as I hoped for. Its not that anything has been said to me - its the fact nothing is said that says it all.

We are all very different people and we deal with things differently but for the sake of your grandchildren, and their mum and dad, and you, could you maybe try to start considering the possibility that despite how your grandchildren present to you, and the fact you work in an SEN school - there is much more going on with the children and the family lifestyle than meets the eye.

To be honest I think I would shoot myself if I had this going on, it must be really really hard, and all the more-so if you're not really able to run a family in an organized fashion anyway. Not everyone can and not everyone can cope with even one special needs child. Its just how it is.

There is so much scope here for an all round improvement in things but it will have to be led by you. You know can do it

sorry, just to add, people often say things like oh he or she is a mildly autistic, or a little bit autistic, when there is no such thing. Its like saying someone is mildly, or a little bit pregnant. And going back to my friend with the HF daughter, when her and her mum first came to Oman to visit us I didn't see the autism for quite a few hours, my family took longer, and even after a few days my family were saying - is she autistic. She undoubtedly is and she does have great difficulties - which can be part of what is called the hidden side of those who are HF. My son has terrible difficulties but when I look at people like Jo I think to myself that being HF must be worse at times than being like my son. He lives with both feet very firmly planted in the world of special needs but people like Jo have to go through life presenting to all intents and purposes as an NT person when they are anything but.

Grateful - there's much more to this than a difference of opinion over the standards of housekeeping. Keep doing what you're doing with your grandchildren, and be sure to take care of yourself. Best wishes.

I think Hannoona when people say 'mildly autistic' they mean at one end of the autistic spectrum. Autism isn't just a yes or no condition like pregnancy. It is a continuum.

Yes, Aka, I do not that. But the fact is a person is autistic regardless of where they are on the spectrum. There is no little bit about it or mildly about it.