Richard 111 again

Anyone watch the new series on the Plantagenets last night? I will have to catch it on iPlayer as it clashed with some good stuff.

Missed that! I've seen their tombs many years ago.

As the last of the Plantagenets perhaps he should be returned to Anjou. Plantagenet Henry II, his wife Eleanor & one son are already in France according to an excellent TV documentary on the Plantagenets on BBC2 last night.

Do you think he would have minded 1] being buried and a car park being built over him, 2] being used as Cockney rhyming slang? He now deserves some very late respect I think....... so, to York, it's the least we can do!

There is a beautifully designed tomb that the Richard III Society have produced; the latest design I've seen from Leicester was pretty unimpressive.
My suggestion for the oubliette would definitely be Henry Tudor and perhaps there'd be room for his awful old mother as well.

Ooooh, Grumpa, you've muddied the waters now. York, Leicester or Gloucester?

Mind you, he was Duke of Gloucester. There's a very impressive cathedral there....

I'm from Yorkshire and lived in York for ten years, so I say York.
There's a very good museum to Richard in the walls of York.
His son is buried in Yorkshire, at Middleham, and they lived in Middleham Castle for a long time. They always went back to Middleham when they needed to relax and get away from court.
The only claim that Leicester has is that is where he was killed. He was killed near there because that is where the two armies met. It could just as easily been Nottingham or Warwick or anywhere in the midlands. Most kings are not buried where they were killed, but somewhere with some connection to them.

My (monopoly) money's on Margaret Beaufort as well.

I'm in East Northants - not too far from Fotheringhay, and in the general area of "North by Northamptonshire" (although the only authentic accent was the Scots one!)
As kids our history teaching definitely tended to the Ricardian!

I must admit that I don't care one way or another where he should be re-buried, but if push comes to shove, as others have said he was Richard of York, therefore it's more fitting for him to be buried in York and not Leicester . What would he have chosen do you think?

Trisha The Greyfriars buried him in Leicester in an honoured position in their church as soon as they could. Given the behaviour of the times it was lucky his enemies did not desecrate his remains or stick his head on a spike on the gate of the city as happened to a grand father in York.

KittyL is right. Leicester was always proud of its connections with him. My mum and aunts appeared to have learnt a lot about him at elementary school in the twenties and thirties and did not have Shakespear's concept of him as a villain.

No sound evidence at all that those boys were murdered on Richards orders. He was never officially accused of such a murder by the Henry Vll camp, which would have been a very good propaganda ploy to use in an invasion attempt.
The "princes" were debarred from the throne by "technical" illegitimacy, which was a serious business in those days.

Not to mention that there was a great deal of contemporary speculation that Edward lV was illegitimate as his Father was away on campaign in France at the time he would have been conceived. E4s mother Cecily Neville was strongly suspected to have had a liaison with a big blond soldier in his absence.

Are you near Fotheringhay Vesper? I love that place, and sitting on the mound above the river... Of course the place where Mary Queen of Scotts was executed.

Now, I wasn't there but I am pretty sure Richard III did not murder the brothers in the Tower. The supposition that Henry VII's mother, Margaret Beaufort, was behind the murders seems to make much more sense.

Best not mention that too loudly round my family - they all support Forest

Leicester look likely to soon have a premiership football team too. It could be their year!

They were declared illegitimate, not by Richard who was very close to his brother and his nephews so he had no reason to arrange their murder. Tyrell did very nicely out of Richmond when he became Henry VII – who also dealt with the Nevilles. Now, he was a nasty piece of work!

Isn't there now some doubt that he was involved in that Jess?

One of my dearest friends comes from the E Midlands. That is my only connection other than going there a few times to conduct interviews.

Maybe an oubliette would be appropriate after what happened to the princes?

Vesper A Good point.

Anno I wonder if we share any ancestors?

There is a beautifully designed tomb planned for Richard and I understand that the university were convinced before they started the excavation that they would find his body.

It isn't true that Richard has had no supporters in Leicester - there has been a very active fRochard lll Society for as long as I have lived here. The people who have provided the DNA live in Canada.

My Mum knew Gary Lineker's grandmother!

Where are you in the East Midlands*vesper*?

I'm sure Westminster could drill a vertical shaft for his bones! Has anyone asked them?

The problem with Westminster Abbey is that they say they've run out of room. Also I don't think they know exactly where Anne Neville's grave is.
I have been a Ricardian for the last 50 years and I believe that he should go back to York. Leicester have been talking about just putting a slab in the floor and not even having a proper tomb. When he was found he'd been thrown into a hole that wasn't even a proper grave, naked and with his hands still tied. Leicester wasn't that bothered about him then.
The problem is that all the paperwork was drawn up at a time when no one really believed he would be found. Digging a hole in the ground and finding a named individual after 500 years just doesn't happen.
I expect Leicester will win but I think Richard would have hated the idea.

I am mostly a lurker, but am posting to say"stop telling everyone how lovely the East Midlands are". They'll all want to come here and spoil it!
And I'd have suggested Fotheringhay, but everyone there is keeping very quiet......................

As I said. Westminster abbey. Makes sense all ways. With his wife and a monarch!

Neville Alliance anyone? Counter claim for disputed remains?