Gransnet forums


Female Navy Officer

(45 Posts)
NanKate Tue 29-Jul-14 19:17:13

I wonder if the naval officer who allegedly had an affair with a subordinate, had been a male, if anything would have been said. I doubt it.

rosequartz Tue 12-Aug-14 09:44:28

Probably for the reasons outlined in the previous posts.

susieb755 Mon 11-Aug-14 21:31:24

While agreeing she should be disciplined etc etc I fail to see why her name has to be splashed all over the media

rosequartz Mon 11-Aug-14 18:54:45

Yes, she will still keep her rank, but she is going to have to work hard to overcome the label she will have acquired (as would a male officer who had done something similar).

HollyDaze Mon 11-Aug-14 10:46:13

That sounds like a very suitable and sensible solution and I hope she has learned to reign in her emotions and not put her career on the line again for such a puerile reason.

Nonu Sun 10-Aug-14 18:21:19

Seems her judgement has been found wanting!


rosequartz Sun 10-Aug-14 17:55:31

Apparently she has been relieved of her command but not demoted. She will be found another role in the RN.

The other officer involved awaits disciplinary action.

rosequartz Sun 03-Aug-14 17:45:36

Posters on this thread have made comments about the fact she is female when I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Unfortunately, perhaps because of media interest, the first female captain of a RN ship will be remembered for this incident and not for her outstanding leadership, expertise, forging a career path for herself and being an inspiration to others or whatever other outstanding qualities she may have.
Her superiors will disregard her gender when she is disciplined.

HollyDaze Sun 03-Aug-14 16:16:21

I think you are misunderstanding my comments rosequartz - my concern is, as I have stated, that if the media highlight the case because she is female (which is the angle they are pushing - first woman in charge of a ship instead of just stating 'a naval captain') the Navy may well decide to be harsher than they would otherwise have been. Posters on this thread have made comments about the fact she is female when I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I cannot, for the life of me, see where anyone can glean from anything I have said that questions disciplinary procedures in general. For the record - my father was in the Air Force, my second husband was in the Air Force and my eldest granddaughter's father was in the army (and through the latter male, we came to learn a fair bit about armed forces discipliinary procedure).

FlicketyB Sun 03-Aug-14 16:05:01

We need to separate naval discipline from media interest in this case.

The Navy are responsible for discipline. It is tight and gender blind. End of. However they have no control whatsoever over the media and if the media go to town over this event there is nothing the navy can do about it. The Navy would almost definitely have preferred it if there had been no media interest.

Blame the media for the sins that are the media's and do not involve the navy.

papaoscar Sun 03-Aug-14 15:31:54

If its against Navy regulations for personnel to have inappropriate relations with each other then so be it, regardless of their sexual orientation. Remedy in the bad old days - the cat o'nine tails and a bit of light keel-hauling.

rosequartz Sun 03-Aug-14 14:39:24

I am not being dismissive either, just don't know how many more times or in a different way I can explain it!!

Perhaps if I say that DH had a car accident many years ago; not his fault but the police officer obfuscated resulting in what could have been a court case. DH was in uniform at the time, but not on duty. If this accident had resulted in a court case, he would have been obliged to inform the RN and that could have resulted in a court martial and further punishment.

Elegran Sun 03-Aug-14 14:02:41

I repeat "That applies to male and female, senior and junior ranks." The captain, whether man or woman, is subject to the same rules, and will be disciplined. It is the media who find it titillating that the (female) captain has been having sex with a (male) subordinate.

rosequartz Sun 03-Aug-14 13:41:16

Not shutting down quickly at all confused - have posted several times on this thread but the message about a different code of conduct that applies to the armed forces as compared to civilians does not seem to be getting through; perhaps Elegran explained it better and more succinctly than I did.

HollyDaze Sun 03-Aug-14 12:56:36

No point in making any more statements, as I said civilians will just not understand.

And not likely to if people shut down so quickly rosequartz. It's also very dismissive of 'civilians' ability to understand - the same used to be said about women in general and that turned out to be so very wrong!

I don't think anyone has questioned whether or not there should be discipline in the armed forces. If she loses her job because of it when male counterparts haven't, that I would question.

Elegran Sun 03-Aug-14 12:53:41

Whenever you have a lot of people cooped up together in close quarters for any length of time, possibly operating in stressful circumstances, you must have a framework of expected behavioural standards. It keeps everyone's feet on the ground and acting for the general benefit of all, not just their own impulses. That applies to male and female, senior and junior ranks.

The "me society" has no place in the forces.

rosequartz Sun 03-Aug-14 12:46:26

I wonder if the naval officer who allegedly had an affair with a subordinate, had been a male, if anything would have been said. I doubt it.

To get back to NanKate's original OP, this is ambiguous. Do you mean would anything have been said by the RN, or would it have been reported in the media, NanKate?

Most certainly the RN would have dealt with this in exactly the same way under the Rules which apply to the Armed Forces.

Would it have been reported in the media? Possibly yes, if the captain of a ship at sea had had to be sent home for having an affair on board with a subordinate. Possibly not so extensively; the reason it has been commented on so much is because she was the first of what everyone was hoping would be many such appointments. All eyes were on her anyway for that reason; other ambitious women RN officers and other ranks will possibly now have to overcome prejudice because of her actions.

I'm not condoning her actions Rose it's just the double standards that annoy me.
NanKate, do you mean double standards by the Royal Navy or double standards by the media?
She will receive the same treatment as any other captain who did the same. The media is probably more interested because of what I said above about her being the first such appointment.

I certainly would throw away the career of someone if they have made one error of judgement of this type
Holly, (presuming you mean not) she has been sent home awaiting discipline. She has not been dismissed the service as far as I know, or lost rank.

If you do not have discipline in the armed forces you end up with the chaos seen in some other countries where they run amok.

No point in making any more statements, as I said civilians will just not understand.

HollyDaze Sun 03-Aug-14 11:27:44

And by some members of the public it would seem Lona - it concerns me that trial by media (and public) may prevail as it has been reported to have done in other areas in the past.

Lona Sun 03-Aug-14 10:21:51

Holly But not twice by the RN, only by the media.

HollyDaze Sun 03-Aug-14 09:23:55

It just seems to me that she is being judged twice: once for the offence and again for being a woman who committed the offence.

rosequartz Sat 02-Aug-14 21:02:14

But civilians do not seem to realise that, FlicketyB.

I will reiterate that the only reason it is in the news is that she is the first woman to command a ship. She herself and all she does is newsworthy simply because of that.

Of course it may have happened before with a male captain and female or male subordinate, who knows, but it was probably not newsworthy. However, they would have been sent home awaiting disciplinary procedures, in just the same way.

FlicketyB Sat 02-Aug-14 18:09:21

Having an army background, the standards and rules of conduct, especially for a commanding officer are exactly the same regardless of sex.

HollyDaze Sat 02-Aug-14 17:29:41

I do understand what you are saying rosequartz but for me, the fact she is female has nothing to do with it. I suspect that higher standards are being applied to her than to her male predecessors over the lifespan of the RN and that, imo, is unfair.

She has not shown moral courage, sound judgement or exceptional people skills in what she has done.

I couldn't, and wouldn't, argue with that - every comment is true; but worth throwing away a long and distinguished career for? Can people not make one mistake?

She will be the object of derision

She should be more an object of derision than any naval officer who has been in a similar position or who has chosen to visit brothels whilst in port.

other women in the Royal Navy will be angry and upset that she may have set back their cause by her actions

Isn't it the responsibility of those other women to show themselves in a different light? Is everyone else so small-minded that they believe every woman in the Armed Forces would behave in exactly the same way? I don't think that line of thought has been applied to males in the RN.

dustyangel Sat 02-Aug-14 15:26:28

I agree rosequartz. It is such a shame that the first female captain will be remembered more for this than other achievements.

rosequartz Sat 02-Aug-14 09:21:45

Yes, dustyangel, it is newsworthy just because she was the first captain of a RN ship, which in itself was newsworthy at the time.

dustyangel Fri 01-Aug-14 21:16:00

My DH agrees with yours rosequartz. He is ex RN as well. The fact is that even if the Captain had been male and had an affair with a male or female subordinate, the result would have been the same. Just not as newsworthy.

When this first hit the news, DH said, "We'll she's not going anywhere. Nor is he.