The Scottish referendum debate...

Yes, it's fair to say that the Scots are a driven race. Driven by their own strengths and weaknesses like the rest of us. From the soaring peaks of their successes they have often descended into the black holes of despair as a result of their own actions (usually by fighting each other and not the common enemy). Now fate has presented them with a chance to shine again and what are they doing? Ridiculing and insulting their greatest friend for 300 years. No wonder St. George and King Arthur are getting restless!

POGS, if it's posts like yours that are driving Scots towards a YES vote, then they must be as humourless as most of them seem.

Thanks Pogs for your brilliant Newhart parody. Just what we needed to lighten things up a bit.

What the English have rosequartz , is superiority in terms of numbers, wealth, power and space. That's as a result of history, whether any of us like it or not and it does make others jealous. All these factors combined with our mixed racial heritage have made us into what we are today, an imperfect breed. But despite that our achievements have been enormous and worldwide, either on our own or, even better, in union with others. So thanks, Alex, for waking up the old lion at last. I suggest you scuttle off quickly before he sees you otherwise you'll be toast!

Pogs It is posts like yours that are driving Scots towards a YES vote.

Westminster has said that in the event of Independence rUK will be the Successor State keeping all the assets, treaties, seats at the top table of nations. Edinburgh has said that if rUK keeps all the assets then it will be liable for all of the debt but if the assets are shared equitably and proportionally, then Scotland will pay its share of outstanding debt.

Scotland's defence forces would work in partnership with rUK's forces under the NATO umbrella.

People domiciled in Scotland have contributed their taxes and National Insurance to the UK exchequer and are therefore legally entitled to their State Pensions. In the event of Independence their Tax & NI will go to the Scottish Exchequer who will be responsible for pensions thereafter.

you want the others to keep subsidising you - UK government figures show that Scotland has paid more into the pot than it has got back over the last 30 years.

Scotland has had to accommodate, against the wishes of the majority, WMD in one of its loveliest sea lochs and only 25 miles from the major city of Glasgow. Enough is enough! If you want the dangerous things, which are an obscene waste of money in a country where 100s of thousands of children live in poverty, then elect to have them in YOUR back yard. Meanwhile, with the money saved Scotland can afford to have some small ships to patrol coastal waters and protect the oil-fields. As an added bonus, with trident gone, the oil fields off the West Coast and in the Firth of Clyde can be developed and fishing boats can return to the area.

Oh and BTW: Junker was misquoted and then issued a statement saying that as people in Scotland had been EU citizens for 30 years this was a 'special case'.

We have been mercifully free of nastiness and name calling during debates and comments on this thread, and I do not for one moment think that your views expressed here are representative of those of the majority of our friends in other parts of the UK. But what really saddens me is that you actually know the arguments and facts inside out but have chosen to post a nasty, prejudiced rant rather than engage in reasoned debate.

papa Salmond may actually have provoked the renaissance of English nationalism, which could be a very large and ugly beast indeed.

Why oh why? It always seems wonderful and something to be proud of when Scots, Irish, Welsh proclaim their nationalistic differences but when the English do the same it is something bad and to be ashamed of.

When DH was watching the Tattoo last night, I was pondering on what exactly the English have that is the equivalent to the Scots, Irish, Welsh in the way of national dress, Eisteddfods etc.
Just last week an acquaintance (who I always thought was a very nice person) practically spat her hatred as we gazed at a view across the water from Wales to England. I mentioned that I am English, and she said very quickly "Oh, I do have some friends who are English" (ie "I'm not racist or prejudiced!"). Really?

So let's get this straight.

Scotland would not take it's share of the debt. Scotland would not keep Trident or be part of the UK defence forces. Scotland no longer wants to share any oil revenue or taxes taken.

Scotland wants to keep it's UK pension and expects further rises. Scotland wants to keep the pound sterling with the Bank of England being the Lender of Last Resort and the rest of the UK to be there to bail it out, again. Scotland is happy for the rest of the UK'S revenue and taxes to pay for it all.

It's like a Bob Newhart sketch.

"You do what Walt" "You stop paying into the pot but you want the other's to keep subsidising you". "You got it made there Walt"

"You do what Walt" "You have been happy to live a good life and now you won't accept your share of the debt, oh I see Walt, the other daft buggers will have to pay" "That's the way to do it Walt"

"You do what Walt" "Oh you live on an island and have one of the world's best armed forces"

"You do what Walt" "You break it up and have a small armed force but the that's OK because if you were picked on the others would come to your rescues because your all living on the same island" "That's very clever Walt, let the other's pay out a fortune, I get ya Walt, very clever".

"You do what Walt" " Ha ha Walt you'll all live like Kings and nobody will have to pay any extra taxes to pay for it" "You know what Walt, your either very clever or bonkers but only time will tell Walt"

It wasn't long ago Junker said as far as Scotland was concerned he agreed with his predecessor, Barroso, he was quite clear that it would be difficult for Scotland if it became an independent country regarding the EU.

Salmond does say a lot of things that simply cannot be taken for granted because nobody knows the answers until Scotland has actually broken away from the rest of the UK.

Sorry I cannot gave you any firm, reassuring answers ATM Newist as the Westminster Government has refused to enter into any discussion or negotiations until after a YES vote. However here is a link to the Republic of Ireland's current scheme. I would expect that a very similar system would be adopted by an iScotland.

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/claiming_a_social_welfare_payment/social_insurance_contributions_from_abroad.html

With public opinion in Scotland mainly in favour of staying in the EU and in England mainly in favour of leaving + a UK wide (if a NO vote prevails) or rUK wide (if YES wins) referendum on EU membership in the offing, no one can predict who will be in or out of the EU in 5 years time. I would assume, however that even if the UK should leave some arrangement would be made for cross border State Pension Payments.

Alex Salmond said last night that Scotland would be treated as a special case by the EU and shoe-horned in.

If it happens, it will be interesting to see him negotiating with Jean-Claude Juncker.

'IF' Scotland after becoming an independent country has to apply to join the EU I think Spain and Belgium just may not go along with Scotland joining the EU as a new nation. It would obviously have to adopt the Euro as it's currency.

Thanks for that jane . I shall just hope that if its Yes, it will be a problem free entry into the EU. Somehow I cant see that happening

These links may prove helpful
Countries where your UK pension will rise every year
Countries which have a social security arrangement with UK

So if Scotland became a member of the EU you would get the rises, or if Scotland decided to have an arrangement with UK, and UK agreed.

With regard to pensions I would be interested to know when we get an increase either in line with inflation or (glory be) more than inflation - would the Scottish pensioners be paid the increase as well? I mean also where would the tax revenue from such pensions be due? Or would a line be drawn on independence and that is that.

What troubles me in all this - this is what we are coming up with goodness knows how much we haven't thought about!

As i understand it, HollyDaze, Trident is the UK's democratically endorsed independent (so-called) submarine-delivered nuclear deterrent, presently located at Faslane (the submarines) and Coulport (the missiles) in Scotland. The system is essentially American sourced, but maintenance and upgrading takes place at Aldermaston in Berkshire, so there is regular, and so far safe, movement of the missiles about the UK anyway.

Now we know that the SNP have given notice to the UK that they would demand that Trident be removed from Scotland, lock, stock and parcel within a tight timetable. That would, of course, be their right in which case the UK would have to relocate Trident south of the border or scrap it, which appears to be unlikely. Now I do not see moving Trident south (and all its jobs) as an insoluble problem, but in any case, a nuclear deterrent need not be delivered (heaven forbid!) by submarine anyway, but by much smaller and cheaper delivery systems. None of that would be any business of the SNP. I am not an expert in this so please excuse any errors or omissions.

I think the UK is committed to paying your pension - people who have moved to other countries will know more about this.

Something I am not sure about??, as far as I know pensions will be paid by the UK up until independence if its a yes vote.
I have paid a full stamp all my working life, will I be classed as having moved to a foreign country with all the pension restrictions included, will my pension be split in two? part paid by the UK until independence then the Scottish Government paying after Independence. I foresee many problems

To think these people represent us - oh dear oh dear!

I think that about most politicians whitewave - including the Manx ones!

To add a PS I suppose that the UK could abandon Trident and opt for some other form of nuclear delivery. Hey ho who cares about the cost it only represents squillions in the form of hospitals, schools, new infrastructure and paying off the national debt none of which we remotely need of course

How I agree with every word of that. I had hoped that it meant seeing the back of the weapons but ...

They could always try storing the missiles in the cellars of Westminster. That would make the Foreign Secretary into a very careful diplomat.

That would be more acceptable.

holly you didn't mishear the debate was rubbish, and nothing was explained either coherently or completely.

To think these people represent us - oh dear oh dear!

Thank you both for explaining, I must have misheard a bit.

Good analysis Whitewave (your post at 11:19)

They could always try storing the missiles in the cellars of Westminster. That would make the Foreign Secretary into a very careful diplomat.

To add a PS I suppose that the UK could abandon Trident and opt for some other form of nuclear delivery. Hey ho who cares about the cost it only represents squillions in the form of hospitals, schools, new infrastructure and paying off the national debt none of which we remotely need of course

Well holly I think the problem for the UK is where to put the submarines. I think that the most likely place would be Devonport, but we still have to think about where to put the warheads. At the moment they are tucked away in some Scottish hill, so I guess with Dartmoor being so close with its granite bedrock that would be somewhere but I have not read any expert talking about this. The UK will not give up it's nuclear capability very lightly.

Must the cost would be enormous I would have thought.