The Scottish referendum debate...

It is rather like children leaving home to emigrate and seek their fortune, but keeping hold of the credit card on the family shared bank account "just in case" it all goes bottoms-up. Could be Ok, but if said child does not make good on their own they could be a drain on family finances without bringing any income into the house.

Saying that if they can't have the credit card they won't pay their share of the debts they (as a part of the unit) ran up before leaving does smack of an adolescent temper tantrum.

Yes, but did they run up the debt, or was it the parents who now blame the children?

Something we should all bear in mind whilst point-scoring against each other is that the real winners of the further fragmentation of the UK will be those huge, powerful, tax-avoiding, manipulative, and non-democratic multi-national companies and organisations who so dominate our lives. Do we really wish to place more and more of our future in their cold, grasping and selfish hands?

If the children were an active part of the decision-making process when the debts were incurred and/or did not argue strongly against the joint decision to take them on, benefitted from the overall increased spending power involved, and contributed to the overall necessity for getting into debt, then they have responsibility for a part of it.

And if you are included in a shared bank account, then you can't walk away from it and still keep the shared credit rating to back up your own borrowing.

I think I am the only GNetter who lives on The Outer Hebrides, its times like this when I wish I could type better and be more articulate, many GNetters make their words sing whilst reading them, a joy to read. I sadly can not do that
I am English (Geordie) who after living in many places have had the privilege of being able to choose where I live at this time of my life.
Living here is totally different to living on the mainland, it can be hard in the winter, short days, terrible wind we barely get a mention on the weather forecast, "strong breeze" over 100kl an hour. Our Saturday papers don't get here till the 4pm ferry arrives, if the sea is not to rough, No papers on a Sunday because it is "The Sabbath" Our petrol is about the most expensive in Europe then there is The R.E.T, scheme which is being tested.
The people here are charming and so kind, many do not have computers, if you don't have Sky the TV signal is hit and miss as is the very expensive wireless broadband, I could of flung my computer yesterday.
The point I am (badly) trying to make is these Islands depend on EU grants to survive, There are various grants for the crofters (a hard life) many still live in little stone dwellings, The main road which is still an ongoing project, is slowly being made into 2 lanes, all being built with EU grants. A new school will soon be built.
The only people here that I know of who will be voting Yes (all hearsay) are incomers, The local people are concerned about the MoD bases, who is a major employer.
No one seems to know whether or not we will continue to be in the EU let alone what currency we will have. If any one can say yes or no to, will we automatically be in the EU or Yes or no to, will we be using the pound, people would perhaps reconsider their vote

Sorry, Elegran but I really resent analogies which portray Scotland as a 'child' of the rest of the Union. The parliamentary Union of Scotland and England was entered into as an equal partnership of two Nations and therefore the dissolution of that partnership is more akin to a divorce where Assets and Liabilities should be equitably shared. When divorcing it is common to negotiate and reach agreements such as 'If you keep the house, you are also solely liable for all of the mortgage'.

Interestingly, when the Union took place Scotland had no debt. It was the Lords, (the very ones who voted for Union against the wishes of the common people), who had personally, suffered huge losses in the Darien disaster. "England compensated Scotland for undertaking to share responsibility for England’s national debt by payment of an equivalent of £398,085 10 shillings."

Fair enough, G23. Divorce from an equal partnership is a better analogy.

We're all equal here, Newist, and your contributions are as relevant, interesting and worthwhile as any body else's, particularly as you represent a particularly beautiful and different part of the UK. You're a very lucky Gransnetter!

Now, now, Granny23, we can all quote selective snippets of history to support our views. The Darien fiasco was planned, conceived and executed by Scots and was a disaster which impoverished the nation. The following incident (article lifted straight out of Wikipedia, so it must be right!) reflects no credit on Scotland or the Scots of the time, whether at the top or bottom of society.

The Darien Hangings

"Thomas Green was the twenty-five-year-old master of an English merchant ship, the Worcester, which he brought into Leith in July 1704, and had been given the command of at the age of twenty-one. Roderick Mackenzie (anti-English rabble-rousing Secretary of the Darien Company) convinced himself that the Worcester was an East India Company ship and should be seized in reprisal for the Annandale. He succeeded in getting legal authority and Green watched over the next three months as his ship's cargo was impounded and the sails, guns and rudder were removed.

In December the crew was arrested for piracy. Although many in Scotland were delighted, it soon became clear to the directors of the Darien company that Mackenzie's charges were not supported by any proof and it seemed the men would be released. However, Mackenzie suddenly claimed to have ascertained from the crew of the Worcester that Green had drunkenly boasted of taking the Speedy Return, killing the Drummonds and burning the ship. Despite a total lack of evidence, Green and two of his crew, John Madden and James Simpson, were sent for trial.

The prosecution case, which was made in medieval Latin and legal Doric, was unintelligible to jury and accused alike. The defence advocates seem to have presented no evidence and fled after the trial. There was hardly anyone in Scotland who was disinterested, but some jurors did resist bringing in a verdict of guilty. Nevertheless, the men were convicted and sentenced to death by hanging.

The Queen advised her 30 privy councillors in Edinburgh that the men should be pardoned, but the common people demanded the sentence be carried out. Nineteen councillors made excuses to stay away from the deliberations on a reprieve, fearing the wrath of a huge mob that had arrived in Edinburgh to demand the sailors be put to death. Even though they had affidavits from London by the crew of the Speedy Return, who testified that Green and his crew had no knowledge or involvement in the fate of the ship, the remaining councillors refused to pardon the men.

Green, Madden and Simpson were subjected to derision and insults by the mob before they were hanged. Green had complete faith that, as an innocent man, he would be reprieved and was still looking to the Edinburgh road for a messenger as the hangman placed the hood over his head."

Now, Now Papaoscar, who is quoting selectively now? You have totally admitted the bit about the English Government and Merchantmen's role in bringing about the collapse of the Darien scheme.

OTOH my quote (from Encyclopaedia Britannica no less) was directly relevant to the subject under discussion i.e. National Debt.

Newist You always paint a vivid, evocative picture of life in the Western Isles and undervalue your ability to move people with your words. I was deeply saddened by the fact that you are finding this referendum so worrying and unsettling. I would however ask you to consider why no money was expended on infrastructure for the Western Isles under a (we're all in it together') Westminster government until 'Madam Ecosse' - the SNP MEP for the Highlands and Islands fought to secure EU funding for many projects in the Islands against strong opposition from the other UK MEPs. Recent developments aimed at lowering travel costs and improving communications have been advanced by the Scottish Government in Edinburgh. One could usefully ask 'What has Westminster ever done for the Western Isles?

No one can guarantee that Scotland will still be in the EU after independence but then neither can anyone guarantee that (with the possibility of a Conservative/UKIP coalition in power) the UK will still be in the EU. I can only point to the fact that public opinion in Scotland is FOR remaining in the EU, whereas public opinion in England/Wales is in favour of leaving. For reasons I have explained elsewhere (mainly fishing rights and oil stocks) I expect that Scotland will be welcomed into the EU.

As to the MOD base - with its valuable strategic position, furthest West and North in Europe other than Iceland I cannot see it being abandoned by an independent Scotland. Its retention may well be a condition of Scotland's admission to NATO.

I do not know North Uist well but have visited there and found it (+ Harris & Lewis) quite different in character from Barra (which I know pretty well) and South Uist, so I am not too surprised that there is a difference in voting intentions between the northerly and southern Western Iles. When we were in Barra last month there were Yes Posters and badges everywhere and a man even complained to me, on seeing my Yes car stickers, that he was desperate to find some visitors to convert as campaigning on Barra was now all 'preaching to the converted'.

Lastly, have you and your neighbours discussed your concerns with your local MP Angus Brendan McNeill or MSP Alasdair Allan who have been holding Open Meetings all over where folks can raise concerns and seek clarification.

Whoa, G23, my point clumsily put about that Darien incident, was meant to highlight the dangers of rampant nationalism and nastiness wherever it comes from.

To keep our little pot boiling, G23, if I were a kilted highlander I would be asking what Edinburgh, Inverness and the HIE (Highlands & Islands Enterprise) are doing for the Wastern Isles with all their dollops of cash. I do remember from my own peregrinations round the highlands that the evidence of expenditure (often paid for by the EU, which means the British taxpayer) was everywhere, but would an independent Scotland be able to do any better?

Thanks, Aka, for bringing a bit of balance to the topic of vandalism. I haven't seen any either, whether by Yes or No supporters, and neither have family members in a rather rough area of Glasgow.

Sorry, that 'admitted' should read 'omitted'.

Papa I would be pleased to trade insults facts and figures with you on one of the more light hearted threads but this is a serious matter for many of us not a fun 'pot-boiler'. If you are actually interested in HIE projects then consult their website www.hie.co.uk . I don't know what responsibility you believe Inverness has for the Western Isles - the local authority is Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, headquartered in Stornaway.

What i would regard as a joke, G23, should I be entitled to vote in the referendum, is the farcical proposition that I vote for a party which does not have a credible and secure fiscal plan for its country's future. That should all have been sorted out a long time ago.

Is Inverness not the main office of HIE? Nice website, by the way, and they appear to be doing a pretty good job without the need for too much change.

I think it is indicative of the London/south-east concentration of power/media interest that I know nothing about any of the matters discussed above. This presumably is one of the reasons some Scottish people feel marginalised and want independence.

As for the currency/fiscal arrangements, those in the government who try and feign relaxation at the prospect of Scotland becoming independent are using this as their trump card to frighten the Scots. If the vote were to be "yes" it would be in the interests of all parties for there to be an orderly transition and the currency situation would presumably have to be sorted out pdq.

I hope Scotland stays in. I think they probably will because people are generally scared of the unknown. I hope that if there is a yes vote, more attention is paid to regions outside south-east England.

I don't think given today's many forms of media and information gathering you can put the lack of a persons knowledge as being their fault. I am sure the people of Scotland do not rely on London/South East press to gain their knowledge, probably the last place. .

You are either interested enough to find out for yourself what is involved or not, surely. To blame the media for a nation feeling marginalised is really going some.

At the end of the day I would think by now minds are set and there will be very few who will change what their gut feeling is telling them. There is so little concrete evidence to make a decision it has to be head over heart or heart over head.

Picking up on AKA & WhenIm's points I have to say how pleased I am with the general tone of the debate, certainly locally. There has been the odd bit of heckling at Public Meetings but the hecklers have desisted when asked to do so by the chair. No one has had to be asked to leave or 'pit oot'. These are meetings open to all, with between 200 & 300 in the audience. During door to door canvassing and street activity I have encountered polite refusal to engage and people who have calmly told me their reasons for voting no but I have only been shouted at (but not threatened), by 2 drunks and 2 members of the Loyal Orange Order, who accused me, personally, of wanting to do away with their Queen and slammed their doors in my face. I know that there has been dog's abuse exchanged on online fora and newspaper comments pages but I do not give credence to anything posted by anyone hiding behind a 'Mickey Mouse' name. Seeing the fighting and genocide within other Countries across the world I am proud that in my Country the worst that is exchanged is a few sweary words.

Papa against my better judgement, I must point out to you that the referendum is not a party political contest but rather an opportunity for the people in Scotland to exercise their right to self determination. In our County-wide YES campaigning group we have people who are members of the Liberals, Labour, SNP, Greens, CND and Radical Socialists but the majority of the activists have not been politically active before.

Then by the same token, G23, all of the people of the UK have the right to determine their future and protect their interests. Omelettes and broken eggs come to mind, together with the difficulty of having cakes and eating them. Lets hope the end result is worth it for all of us.

On that note lets hope we don't end up crying over spilt milk!!

I don't think there is much doubt that the people of Scotland will say NO when the time comes.If they say YES then I will eat my [virtual] hat.

I found this rather interesting. Do you want to keep your Scottish NHS?
www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/letters/opening-back-door-to-nhs-privatisation-1-3505004

Yes Jen. We (Yes Campaign) have had Health Service professionals speaking at Public Meetings and putting the same case forward. It is unfortunate that it is a complex issue and takes a bit of explaining but once people grasp what WILL happen to our health service they tend towards a YES vote. The main newspapers (with the exception of the Herald) and allegedly unbiased TV companies are all in thrall to one or other of the Unionist Parties so this issue does not get the coverage it deserves or is ridiculed in the manner of the 3 comments under (scroll well down the page) the letter you have highlighted.
I used to be a regular contributor to the comments on the Scotsman but for the past year my (perfectly reasonable, non abusive) postings have mainly failed to get past the moderators. Funny That It is also strange that although YOUGOV still invites me regularly to complete surveys about TV programmes, Supermarkets and financial services, I have not had a single 'political' one since January. My YES colleagues are having the same experience.

Interesting, that, Granny23. Who owns the Scotsman?
I do find when I comment in local papers there are lots of trolls to dismiss what I say. But I would have thought the Scotsman would be unbiased.

hackinginquiry.us5.list-manage.com/track/click?u=36889d82a90d38e0b25c84b47&id=982cc0c934&e=9d235c0378

This might interest you, Granny23.