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The Scottish referendum debate...

(325 Posts)
papaoscar Tue 05-Aug-14 21:52:55

Eventually managed to watch most of it on the satellite after a lot of fiddling about. Cannot understand why it was not made available on all UK TV. Not a brilliant display of debating though - to many interruptions - but I thought the key point was Salmond's total failure to detail his plans and alternatives for the Scottish currency. A massive weakness in his campaign. Anybody else got any reactions, or are you all still sweeping up at Pete's bar?

rosequartz Wed 27-Aug-14 18:16:51

bags And so don't feel a need to be pettily nationalistic.
So when the Irish, Welsh, Scots celebrate their nationality are they also being 'pettily nationalistic' or are they proclaiming pride in their heritage?
Only the English apparently! confused

Just what I was trying to say in the above posts!

JessM Wed 27-Aug-14 18:48:20

My SOH obviously out of place on this serious thread. (dons sackcloth and throws ashes on head)
But surely you can see Rosequartz that wanting to have your own flag etc is a a bit like a bunch of chaps starting a men's liberation movement. Kinda thing. grin
It's true that nobody can do petty nationalism like the Welsh, esp when it comes to rugby. But I can say that in the last 12 months since i have been living here, no-one has assumed that I am English and been rude to me. Which they might well have done.
Please don't go Scotland. We need you to stick around. Please!

rosequartz Wed 27-Aug-14 18:56:24

JessM it would just be nice to see the English men dressed up in a skirt or something, dancing round the maypole. (We don't even have a national dress, do we?)

I don't know if living on the borders makes people more nationalistic as if to prove they are Welsh not English; I have been quite astonished at some of the remarks lately. It seems to be a new thing.
However, I have upset one or two by asking innocently if they are English as surely our area of Wales was part of England when they were born.
Oh dear, I will be banished to the dungeons.
Although I do have some Welsh blood.

United we stand, divided we fall. My dearest BF used to say she was British, born and bred in Scotland.

Back to the main, sensible debate.

thatbags Wed 27-Aug-14 19:56:54

No, roseq. Celebrating one's country (any part of Britain in my case) is not the same thing as nationalism. Plenty of people do celebrate things English and I'm all for that, just as I'm all for celebrating things Scottish or Irish or Welsh. Being proud of historical or cultural things peculiar to a certain place is not nationalism.

I think I'm making a distinction being celebrating things (culture, traditions, etc) and celebrating nationality. Perhaps others don't make that distinction. If so, that may be why misunderstanding occurs.

POGS Wed 27-Aug-14 20:57:46

"You do what Walt" "In a country called Scotland the men wear skirts"

"You do what Walt" "In a country called England they think they fought dragons and roll cheese down hills and run after it"

"You do what Walt" "In a country called Wales they worship a vegetable called a leek"

"You do what Walt" "In a country called Ireland they believe in little green men"

"Jeese Walt, is that the 4 countries they call the UK, THEY ALL SOUND EQUALLY NUTS TO ME, THEY BELONG TOGETHER "

(Sorry about another dear Walt post)

rosequartz Wed 27-Aug-14 22:37:57

noun: nationalism
patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
"an early consciousness of nationalism and pride"
synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, allegiance/loyalty to one's country, loyalism, nationality*

I thought it was what I meant as pride in one's country, its traditions and heritage.
Other people may see it as something different, subtle nuances in language can make all the difference.

durhamjen Wed 27-Aug-14 23:38:14

durhamjen Wed 27-Aug-14 23:47:26

Hope he doesn't chicken out.

Granny23 Fri 29-Aug-14 10:59:16

Well that's me just made the most important vote of my life (postal vote).
I am of course not allowed to tell you how I voted grin but I am very happy - Oh yes, I am.

papaoscar Fri 29-Aug-14 11:27:35

Well done,*G23*, lets hope the result is a satisfactory one for all us, including those not permitted to vote on this vital issue. In the meantime, cheers, let's raise a glass to democracy!

Granny23 Fri 29-Aug-14 11:34:21

Thanks Papa Slainte. Hope we remain friends whatever the outcome.

Jane10 Sat 30-Aug-14 09:37:41

Cant wait for the 18th. To know once and for all if we`re going down the pan!!

papaoscar Sat 30-Aug-14 10:14:16

United we stand,*G23*!

papaoscar Sat 30-Aug-14 13:26:48

Enjoying Question Time on Radio 4 about this. Some very good points coming out.

papaoscar Sat 30-Aug-14 14:08:17

Now that the voting process has started in Scotland perhaps it is a good time to reflect on what is going on. As an Englishman certain thoughts come to mind:-

1) First, Independence. Noboby would deny the Scots the right to opt for it. After all, we do not want the sad, sad history of Anglo-Irish relations to be replicated as regards Scotland, or indeed Wales.

2) Voting. The denial of a vote to the English, Welsh and Northern Irish, or even the opportunity to express an opinion, is a great mistake. After all, the potential break-up of the UK will affect all members of it.

3) The SNP. Why ever didn't they present Scottish voters with definite, approved proposals for finance, currency, health, defence etc. Instead, they seem to live in an 'Alice-in-wonderland' world of make-believe. Just because they think they have rights does not mean that, in fact, they do so. Their attitude smacks of self-delusion and blackmail.

4) Federation. Rather than jumping blind into the black hole of independence, would it not be far more sensible to at least examine the prospects of increased regional and national autonomy under a federated system? Other countries have done it and it seems to work.

thatbags Sat 30-Aug-14 15:15:44

People in other parts of the UK have not been denied the opportunity to express their opinions about indyref, osc. Other than that small point, I like your post a lot.

rosequartz Sat 30-Aug-14 15:19:41

Regarding point 4, papa

It is a good point but did other countries eg Australia, come together as a federation from separate self-governing areas rather than becoming a federation formed from a united country breaking apart?

papaoscar Sat 30-Aug-14 16:59:48

I just thought, Thatbags, that the opinions of the rest of the UK would have been of value, either by inclusion in the indyref, or even by some sort of online petition or whatever. After all, things will never be the same, and maybe the time has come to change the status quo.

Wheniwasyourage Sat 30-Aug-14 18:39:19

Please bear in mind, papaoscar, that it was the UK government who refused to let there be a choice for some form of "Devo Max" on the ballot paper, as had been suggested by the Scottish government (yes, the SNP one!!!). That would have involved more powers for the Scottish Parliament and a loosening of some ties, without full independence, and would, according to the polls at the time, have won hands down. It would have given everybody more opportunity to decide how a readjustment in the relationships would work. However, we have a straight Yes or No, and we will see what happens.

NfkDumpling Sat 30-Aug-14 18:47:22

Hasn't Scotland already pretty much got devomax? So often such and such will be broadcast with the additional announcement "except in Scotland, where they already have ......... "

Granny23 Sat 30-Aug-14 20:18:59

Specially for you, Papa so you can vote YES or NO

I think it is meant to be just a bit of fun but my village (FK11) returned 100% YES grin

rosequartz Sat 30-Aug-14 20:33:32

My area: 23% voted yes so far (s. Wales)

rosequartz Sat 30-Aug-14 20:35:23

We love you, don't leave us ( at least 77 % of us love you!)

papaoscar Sat 30-Aug-14 20:53:17

Many thanks,*Granny23*, 18% 'yes' so far here our little corner of Olde England. Interesting about devomax, WhenIwas..., it may yet be a useful compromise, I think.