To be absolutely shocked at this story?

His wording was crass I admit but you can't exclude or separate the debate about abortion from this thread as the issues are so intertwined.
I think if someone apologises then that apology should be accepted not scorned.

're the Spectator article - made me think RD is the David Icke of atheism.

I think clever R Dawkins chose the wording for his original tweet very carefully. He is now back tracking but this is becoming a regular pattern. But yes it was the immoral I found objectionable. Parents who have decided to go ahead and have a Downs child should not be labelled immoral.

penguinpaperback

In answer to the question of a DD or DS asking advice on whether to abort a Downs baby, foetus, I would only offer unqualified support at whatever difficult decision the parents made but I would not advise abortion.

Very wise imo.

I remember years ago, when I had three small children around my feet, listening to a radio discussion about the difficulties of looking after seriously disabled children (not all were Downs Syndrome). It was not about abortion, but about how exhausted and frazzled the parents were, and about how marriages were being damaged and other children suffering.

Most of the mothers spoke about the stresses of being alert 24/7 to the disabled child. One of them would lay the child in a protective playpen in the garden surrounded by toys tied to the rails while she did essential chores - and had been criticised by a neighbour for "imprisoning" him. Another spoke of having to make older children independent far too early because it took all her time to see to the disabled one. All were doing their best in a difficult situation, but told how they were suffering and unhappy in their situation.

All except one. Her first child was very seriously disabled, and needed constant attention. She had made the decision to have no more children, and give up her carer, and devoted herself entirely to him. She insisted that it was a blessing and a privilege, that she was entirely happy, that she could not understand how the rest of them could complain at their lot. I waited for someone to point out that they were already responsible for a family when they were "blessed" with a disabled one, but strangely no-one did.

One persons burden is another person's chosen task. Morality is a minefield which RD should keep out of.

Thank you HollyDaze.

Wise words as ever, Elegran.

What I find hard to understand in this whole debate is the view that a person's life has no value because 'they are bloody hard work'. That is a failure of society in not providing the appropriate care and facilities for the learning disabled.

HymnsElf now works, after a lifetime in business, in a social enterprise for the learning disabled. Many of the team members have Downs. They are productive and valued members of the team and lead just as happy a life as anyone else.

The logical fallacy in RD's Tweet was that:

In saying that Down's Foetuses should be aborted and that it is immoral not do so, he presupposes that

A Downs people have no value, either because they might be troublesome to wider society, or because they might suffer.

Therefore they would better off not being born.

In fact, most Downs people suffer no more nor less than many others, and
If they should be troublesome, that is a failure of society in not providing appropriate support.

So his assertion fails.

I'm not speaking here about the devastating conditions referred to upthread, but about Downs which is what was very specifically mentioned in the Tweet.

At my DGS's Special Needs nursery one of the helpers had Downs. He worked quite independently without having to be constantly supervised and the children loved him. They related to him and he had a very special relationship with them. DGS still remembers him after 4 years.

Good posts MiceElf and Elegran.

Lots of perfectly healthy children turn out to be "bl**ody hard work*. My "too clever" son was and is.

The same young friend who recently had a termination, said that her doctor (GP) told her that there are people across the entire spectrum, from those couples who take a while to make up their minds about what they want to do, to couples who decide to go ahead knowing that there is a strong possibility that their baby will not lie beyond a few hours or be "born sleeping" (I'd never heard that expression before). One couple had a family photograph taken with their stillborn baby. Then there are people like my friend who had the news on a Friday and was booked for a termination on the Monday, and has moved on with her life. It's an individual and personal decision about whether or not a life has value, I wonder how many people would take a logical approach to that decision.

I agree MiceElf. To label people as "immoral" because they don't wish to abort a Downs syndrome baby smacks of intolerance to me. If what he intended to say has been misunderstood, he really should have the sense to realise that Twitter is not a suitable medium for commenting on complex ethical issues.

Aka My husband, who spent his whole working life in the learning disabilities sector, did not recognise your description of people with Downs Syndrome as being especially aggressive or disruptive, though proper training to pre-empt and defuse potential conflict is useful.

You only have to look around the world to see that aggressive, violent and sexually predatory behaviour is not the preserve of people with learning disabilities.

He didn't label people as immoral; he labelled an action, or lack of action, immoral in his opinion. He's allowed to do that, as are the rest of us. No-one is forced to agree with that or anything else he says.

I'm beginning to sympathise with his remark about deliberate misunderstanding (or whatever it was).

Bags if you read my posts carefully, you will see that I have been vary careful not to misquote or misunderstand. I did not say that he labelled people as immoral.

And of course no one is forced to agree with him. Everyone is, however free to disagree and to express that view robustly.

Eloethan I did NOT label people with Downs Syndrome as aggressive or disruptive per se now did I? I simply pointed out that not all are as depicted, sweet natured and childlike, in my experience. Your husband is very lucky not to have met with this in his working life.
And my main point was the one that Elegran made so well ...viz. the impact a child with more than 'learning difficulties' can have on families.

Children in general have a major impact on families - both for the better and the worse. And those with special needs more so. We need to make sure that the right support is there, rather than condemning any foetus that might cause a particular problem.

I would have a deep concern about carrying a baby that might have an illness that would cause a lot of pain or suffering to him or her.

I get very annoyed when physically disabled or autistic children do not get the level of service that is often there for children with Downs or other learning disabilities - or is in this area.

Mishap - I apologise for my post on the previous page. As you say you don't have to be religious to have compassionate feelings.
My hackles go up when someone like SD is mentioned, too much exposure to militant atheists elsewhere.
I wonder why he picks on Downs syndrome - as others have said there are many more disturbing disabilities. Perhaps because it is one of the few which can be diagnosed in utero. Evidently Downs births are much less common since the test was introduced.
Most of my working life was spent among disabled children, and those with Downs syndrome were by far the most droll and full of character. Also tend to be stubborn. But very demanding on the parents and family.
When "normal" people are exposed to the disabled it can bring out a caring side of our nature - I saw that a lot in mixes of "normal" and disabled children.
So I think he's wrong.

When I was first pregnant (many years ago) we were offered the opportunity of various blood tests to screen for anomalies. Many people wouldn`t have the tests as they didn`t want to know if there was something wrong with their baby and would never consider abortion anyway. Maybe we have too many choices these days!We demanded them (and quite right too) but they led to even more, even harder choices for some. Having worked for a lifetime with people with "differences" of all sorts I`ve seen a huge range of Mums and how they have managed with their children. What may be stressful but easy enough in a small disabled child can be a very different proposition when their child is 20, 30, 40.................
I`ve met Mums who have happily made their child their life`s work (often at the expense of their other children), Mums who couldn`t find other carers for their child quick enough and the vast majority of Mums who just take each day as it comes and do their best all the time haunted by the horrifying worry about what will happen to X when I`ve gone?

I worked for some time in a residential home where we had several adults with DS. I have to agree with Aka that they were not all sweet natured and childlike, especially in their sexual needs.

Mums who couldn`t find other carers for their child quick enough and the vast majority of Mums who just take each day as it comes and do their best all the time haunted by the horrifying worry about what will happen to X when I`ve gone?

That was the problem that my aunt and uncle had - their daughter was too aggressive to be left with anyone. When she became an adult, she repeatedly attacked my aunt leaving my aunt having to be hospitalised to be stitched up (one particular attack involved my aunt being stabbed repeatedly in the head with an old fashioned tin opener). Only when my aunt was diagnosed with cancer for the third time were my aunt and uncle offered any form of respite by SS and even then it was only two afternoons per week.

My aunt sadly died from cancer and my uncle died soon afterwards - my cousin ended up in a mental institution for the rest of her days. The reality isn't always as rosy as it has been painted on this thread.

The reality is not rosy, but caring for any child is not all beer and skittles, and we none of us know what we might be called upon to do for our families should a member become ill or disabled.

Life is not rosy - it is full of challenges and pain and we have to grit our teeth and get on with it. But I do think a civilized society should do more to support carers and those with disabilities of whatever sort.

I agree that raising children isn't a doddle and it isn't always a picture of sweetness and light - then add a troubled mind to the pot and it will only be a worse scenario. My aunt and uncle adored my cousin - towards the end of their lives, they were very afraid of her and did, to an extent, resent her.

I get tired of hearing 'as a society we should do x, y or z'. What are people supposed to do until society does do all the things that we think it should? How many would agree to their taxes being driven up to pay for it all? You already have many single people complaining that they don't get tax breaks for being 'non breeders' so why should they pay to support other people's lifestyle choices of having families.

It isn't realistic or helpful to state what should be done over and over again - it would be more helpful to state what can be done.

I was replying to the first line of the post before mine, mice. I thought it needed clarifying.

I imagine people with this condition might have an opinion. There are some who attend a centre near where we live, and seem quite capable of expressing their thoughts, and opinions.

I wondered when that comment would be raised geeljay. I have a friend who was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease at the age of 18 (very early for that diagnosis) and she also has MS (from the age of 21). She and her husband were advised to think carefully about having children as the children would have above a 50% risk of developing those illnesses. They decided to have one child. At the age of 18, their daughter was diagnosed with Crohn's. Given that she had seen what her mother went through over the years, how Crohn's dictated her life - she was naturally very upset. She hasn't spoken to her parents for many years which is a shame as I remember them being a very close family.

I raised it on Thursday, Holly, and am glad that others think it's worth considering.

"I'd like to see some people with Down's Syndrome interviewed about this. Apparently some of them do actually have voices and opinions."

I wonder if many young adults with genetic diseases or abnormalities feel bitter towards their parents? I hope not.