To be absolutely shocked at this story?

Shouldn't he have the sense to understand the nature of tweets? He puts such a high value on intelligence! But I don't think that is the basis of the complaints. Callous intolerance is callous intolerance even if expressed in 140 characters.

I blame Twitter - when Richard has the space to lay out his statement it all makes sense - condensing it into the 140-character limit is the source of all the complaints.

I find some of David Attenborough's utterances about human beings rather horrid as well. His are disguised as "care for the planet" so people don't notice. There is that about RD—he's bloody open and honest with his opinions.

Interesting article in the Guardian. I think I need to read it again.

Please be assured that Dawkins does not represent the majority of those who have no religious belief. Most find his comments superficial and crass.

Since having a humanist celebrant for my father's funeral, I have been on the receiving end of endless communications from the Humanist Society, most of whose basic tenets I would not quibble with; but I have not joined as I do not like their pioneering stance. I am equally disturbed by evangelical religionists.

Live and let live.

Final comment? www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2014/aug/29/nobody-better-at-being-human-richard-dawkins

Eloethan Mon 25-Aug-14 19:21:17

Pretty much sums it all up imo.

Eloethan - your post of: Sun 24-Aug-14 12:55:20

I agree entirely but this comment is being made more and more.

At a slight tangent but possibly still relevant given the discussion, I heard on the Scottish debate last night (by an audience member) that the reason there is less money in the NHS is because of sending certain procedures into the private sector (with the claim it is to cut waiting times) but she stated that many politicians are Board Members of those private healthcare providers so the NHS is spending more than it has to which reduces the pot for everyone (other than those shareholders). The more public debate reveals, the more underhanded dealings that seem to be to be going on.

My apologies Maggiemaybe - you did indeed mention it and I had forgotten that.

Paposcar, nature did give me a child with a severe learning difficulty. My youngest son's brain was damaged by a virus before he was a year old.His partner has Down's syndrome . I am very lucky to have them both in my life. My son has been my greatest teacher. I feel blessed .
The difficulties have always been caused by political actions and finances affecting the support he gets not by him.

Well said, eloethan.

This is a personal thing--I could not do that because to me it would be murder as I am catholic

BUT

IMHO..As I said this is personal thing and no ones place to judge [smle]

I think there should be no pressure on a parent/parents either way - whether to terminate the pregnancy or whether to go ahead with it, though I do think it is important that people are in possession of all the relevant information - and counselling if wanted - before reaching as decision.

I think Richard Dawkins' was foolish to make such a brief comment on Twitter, given the complex and sensitive nature of the subject. I do not think it is "morally wrong" for a parent to proceed with an "abnormal" pregnancy but I also don't think it is "morally wrong" for a parent to decide to terminate such a pregnancy.

I am aware of the medical problems harrigran As I mentioned I have worked with both children and adults who have Down Syndrome. I think that even with the medical problems associated there no good reason to abort these people. Many of my 'link' people had early onset dementia. It may be more than an extra chromosome, as you say, but the nitty gritty is that is IS an extra chromosome and one extra chromosome doesn't make someone's life less worthwhile.

Unfortunately it is often more than just an extra chromosome. There are medical conditions which can cause problems. our relative had a serious heart problem which led to Eisenmenger's syndrome, thyroid problems and gout. There is an increased risk of early onset dementia too.

I would have felt blessed if I had been 'given' a child with Downs's Syndrome just as much as I feel blessed to have had 5 typical children. Who are we to say that children with Down's Syndrome have any less right to be born. It is one chromosome for goodness sake.

With Down's Syndrome

53,000 sexual attacks on females in 2012. I'm sure they weren't all perpetrated by people itch Doenz's Syndrome.

Agree with Aka I have been attacked quite viciously by a young man with Down Syndrome, he had to have 1:1 attention due to his behaviour. I also agree regarding the sexual needs of some people with Down Syndrome, often because of some lack of inhibition this was often displayed in public areas.
I also knew one young lady who was writing a 'book' about the staff who worked with her. She told me that she would get it published and get a lot of people into trouble. I asked her if what she was writing was factual, she replied 'No, it's lies but people will believe me'. Hmmmm!

I have a very close relationship with a little boy of four and a half years who has global developmental delay. He cannot walk or talk (except for one word - he can say my name), but he does communicate through limited Makaton signs. He is very close in age to my grandson and they occasionally play together. His parents made the choice NOT to abort him although they were informed of his difficulties whilst he was still in utero. I love this little boy and so do many other people; I'm glad that he lives to enrich so many lives and that his own is full of love and care. I would gladly pay more tax so that he, and others like him, received the support he needs.

We were very lucky in that nature did not give us a child with Down's syndrome or any other handicap. I think it probably best, after a positive foetal test, to let the parents decide on what to do and I'm glad we were never put in that position. I have to say that over the last 60 years we have known a number of families with such children, and they have usually turned out to be wonderful, happy little people much loved by their kind and caring families.

Hollydaze I don't mind paying more tax, although I think those who earn the most should pay the most - which isn't the case at present.

Those single "non-breeders" (a horrible expression I think) that you refer to were children once themselves who attended school and had access to subsidised meals, and whose parents were presumably in receipt of child benefit. If we take this attitude to its logical conclusion then nobody would want to contribute to anything from which they didn't benefit personally or which they considered to be "deserving".

This government says we have no money but huge amounts of money have been wasted on the re-organisation (or some may see it as the disorganisation) of the NHS, the setting up of so-called "free schools", the selling of Royal Mail at a bargain price, etc. etc. Our taxes also go to landlords, via Housing Benefit, and to subsidising often very profitable companies by topping up poverty wages through working tax credits. So there is money available - but to whom that money is directed depends on what set of priorities are in place.









+Conservative governments by their very natural have always wished to keep things as they were. T

Trying not to be pedantic here but I prefer the term people with Down Syndrome and not Downs babies, children or adults. They are people first.
You would not say, for instance, broken leg child but child with a broken leg.

I do feel strongly that these people have the same right to be born as any typical person. I was offered amniocentesis with my last child as I was almost 36. I refused because whatever the outcome I would love and want this baby.

I also agree that not all people with Down Syndrome are pliable, sweet natured and 'never lie' (something that is often said) I have worked with various children and adults with this condition for over 25 years and can honestly say that people with Down Syndrome are as varied in their characters as any of us.

I wonder if many young adults with genetic diseases or abnormalities feel bitter towards their parents? I hope not.

I raised it on Thursday, Holly, and am glad that others think it's worth considering.

"I'd like to see some people with Down's Syndrome interviewed about this. Apparently some of them do actually have voices and opinions."

I wondered when that comment would be raised geeljay. I have a friend who was diagnosed with Crohn's Disease at the age of 18 (very early for that diagnosis) and she also has MS (from the age of 21). She and her husband were advised to think carefully about having children as the children would have above a 50% risk of developing those illnesses. They decided to have one child. At the age of 18, their daughter was diagnosed with Crohn's. Given that she had seen what her mother went through over the years, how Crohn's dictated her life - she was naturally very upset. She hasn't spoken to her parents for many years which is a shame as I remember them being a very close family.