To wish ATOS would leave me alone

Elegran you've put it perfectly.

But if the system was working properly, people would not have to go to appeal. The PIP assessment is so far behind it is getting ridiculous. People have died whilst waiting for their appeals to be heard.
From what I understand, if you are waiting for your appeal to be heard, you cannot be put back on ESA support, and have nothing to live on. There are harrowing stories on the citizens advice website.
blogs.citizensadvice.org.uk/blog/topics/fit-for-work/
Galen, you have told people not to worry because the backlog is so big that it will take 60 years to clear. That just shows how ridiculous the system is.
Do you not agree that you are propping up a man who has not been able to do his job properly?
The goalposts have been changed so often that nobody knows what they are any more. The public accounts committee has criticised IDS for doing just that.

So you would advise the appeals judges to refuse to work? To not hear any appeals?

If all car drivers did their driving properly and never had an accident, and no-one ever fell over or cut themselves or got into fights, there would be no need for A & E departments. Are those who work in them and try to put right the damage just encouraging carelessness and road rage?

I am sure that Galen and her colleagues have made their opinions clear on the policies that they are administering, which apart from their effect on the claimants are adding a great deal of work and stress to them.

I bet they haven't, elegran.

I disagreed with CCGs. When they decided there were to be lay people on them, I got the forms. I had to say that I agreed to the ethos of CCGs before I could apply. So I couldn't and neither could anyone else who disagreed with the changes in the NHS.

Your A&E analogy is not appropriate.

I stopped being a Benefit Advisor in 2008. Any of my clients who were refused a benefit, usually Attendance Allowance, I helped with their Appeal and usually accompanied them to the Appeal hearing as their advocate. In the ten years I did this only one person was refused the benefit on Appeal.

This I think was partly while ATOS were in post and partly with the Department of Health. Then most appeals arose from people with the most complex medical problems. The assessors, whether ATOS, or civil servants, whether AA or DLA seemed to me medically ignorant. I was told by someone who had worked for the DHSS, as it was then, that this work was undertaken by clerical workers on the lowest grade and that they used a scoring system, as on credit cards. As most staff didn't understand the details of those with more complex medical problems they just refused them and let the Appeal Panel sort it out.

I have several friends who do the same work as Galen, one in quite a senior position. One of them said that ATOS pay rates were so poor they only attracted doctors, who were incapable of getting work elsewhere and their assessments were a reflection of their competencies, or lack of them.

I heard the chairman of the company taking over on the radio yesterday and she was talking brightly of how they were going to recruit 100s of extra staff to do the assessments, make them more personal etc. I listened to this very cynically. I understand one of the reasons ATOS gave up the contract was because staff were leaving in droves and they were unable to replace them because those at the assessment end of government policy were meeting so much negative reaction, not so much from clients but people they met outside when they mentioned who they worked for and what they did.

Try appeals against criminal convictions as an analogy if you don't like my A&E one. Appeals are possible if there is new evidence, which has not been considered, or a technicality that means the judgment is unsafe. So there is another layer.

Durham people turned down for ESA do get paid while waiting for their appeal.
BUT
They can't appeal until after they have received their mandatory reconsideration. This is an extra tier of adjudication that has been added and takes months to undertake. No money is received until after the appeal has been made.
This extra tier is what is wasting the most time along with the appointment for the interview. We list the appeals very promptly after they have been reveived. We have NO WAITING LIST.

Jenyou asked Galen
'Do you not agree that you are propping up a man who has not been able to do his job properly?'

The vast majority of doctors working in the NHS loathe Jeremy Hunt and his policies.
Should they too resign?
All professional people working in public service have this dilemma of being caught between the ideal service they would like to deliver, and adhering to the policies and constraints of the State which pays them for their services.

I'm afraid that your personal remark to Galen sounded like a cheap gibe.

A lot of GPs are resigning, Janea. You read Pulse, just like I do.

Has anyone read the CAB site? Is it not worrying that the CAB has to set up an e-petition on change.org to get the fit for work system changed?
Am I the only one that thinks this is iniquitous?

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/campaigns/current_campaigns/fitforwork.htm

Read Colin's story if you think people are paid while waiting for justice.

"A new process called ‘mandatory reconsideration’ cuts off people’s disability benefit while the DWP reconsiders their ESA application. This has led to cases where people are being told by one part of the Government that they can’t claim ESA, because they are fit enough to work, while another part of the Government is telling them they can’t claim Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) because they are not fit for work. This has resulted in some people having no money at all and led to many of the people we help to turn to food banks to get by.

Anyone who does succeed in applying for JSA will be given the same £71 a week they were being given under ESA. This seems a ridiculous waste of time and money. We estimate that getting people to apply for Jobseeker’s Allowance is wasting over £160 per person in pointless administration.

Please support our petition calling on the Government to put an end to this policy which is wasting taxpayers’ money while placing people in a ridiculous and unfair situation."

From the CAB website.

All the tribunal members I work with think it's wrong and we don't hesitate to say so. The committee in The House say the same!
Don't blame us. We're doing our best but have to work within the law

Exactly what I have been saying, Galen, the system is wrong. To someone not being paid either ESA or JSA, it does not matter where the hold-up is.
It's degrading having to apply anyway, but then having your benefits stopped and having to rely on foodbanks is quite sick.

This is what the government says about the work capability assessment. I note it gives itself up to 2018 to get it right. Hopefully IDS will no longer be an MP by then, let alone a minister.

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/work-and-pensions-committee/news/esa-wca-report-substantive/

They are paid at the assessment rate once the appeal is lodged.
It's the period while waiting for the mandatory reconsideration is not payed.

I worked for many years with people with brain injury and was part of the lobby to get the disability benefits claim form changed (which it eventually was) to cover their "hidden" disabilities. So that is a step forward.

But it was still absolutely vital to get the wording right on the forms. And not to be afraid of repeating yourself over and over again - as indeed the forms do!

I would recommend that anyone applying for a disability benefit gets the advice of someone with experience in the field when completing the forms.

In all the years I worked in the field I never once had a claim refused. Attention to detail and knowledge of the system are what is needed and the average person making the claim does not have that knowledge.

It also takes a fair bit of stamina to consider all the ways that your condition affects you and the details of how far from a normal life you currently have.
Just thinking all of that through and having to repeat it over and over on the forms (as you say, Mishap, that is necessary) can be quite depressing for the claimant, as I know from helping a relative with claims and appeals, which were eventually won.

"ESA claimants are being told that during MR they need to apply for JSA, as they have been found fit for work. To allow this Jobcentre Plus staff are meant to take account of a claimant’s condition and reduce their conditionality accordingly. We are finding that this is not working in practice. For example
Jack1 was helped by Woking CAB when he was stuck between his Jobcentre who told him he was not fit for work and therefore ineligible to claim JSA because he had a note from his doctor and the DWP assessor who said he was no longer able to claim ESA as he had been found fit for work.
A woman in Watford with depression and severe mental health issues was only given 6 points and refused ESA. She asked for her decision to be reconsidered and was sent to her local Jobcentre to apply for JSA while she waited. However her Jobcentre advisor told her that she would find it too difficult to attend interviews because of her mental health and therefore could not qualify for JSA. This left her caught between two parts of DWP with no money at all; one told her she was too fit for ESA and another telling her she was too unwell for JSA
Martin was reassessed for ESA and was given 0 points. His case went for reconsideration, and during this time, his benefits were stopped, including Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit. Martin was initially told the reconsidered decision would take 14 days but it took 5 weeks. During this period he tried to claim JSA but was told he couldn’t do so because he was unfit for work."

This is more from the CAB report to the DWP.
This is what happens to people in reality, either before or after you see them, Galen.
I think we agree with each other about what is wrong. Most cases take at least a month without benefits and claimants now have to beg or borrow from friends. People having to have food parcels from the Red Cross to survive cannot be right.
It's just plain evil to make those who cannot work be made to feel worse than they are. I know about this because my husband had to be reassessed every year for ten years. Then sense was seen and he was not made to revisit his accident for the next five years. The system changed again just before he got his pension. It seems to be much worse now than in 2010.

Here is a link to the Citizens' Advice Bureau petition, mentioned by durhamjen : www.change.org/p/sign-this-petition-calling-for-govt-to-stop-cutting-benefits-during-fitforwork-appeals

If I went into the street and kicked a disabled person I would be in court for assault, yet this is far worse behaviour from our government.

Jen. I am confused, how can applying for a benefit be, in itself, degrading. How do you get it if you do not apply for it?

Applying for a benefit is degrading because if you have always worked and supported your family it feels wrong if you suddenly can't do it and have to ask for money. Obviously people are entitled to benefits, but you can't help feeling you should be able to manage by yourself. If you start piling on interviews and appeals it just makes it worse.

Life is much easier now DH and I are both retired. At least there is no argument now about whether he is fit for work. His DLA is supposed to be changing to PIP next year so I don't know what will happen then -but at a pinch we could get by without it.

It is degrading being made to feel like a scrounger and having to convince faceless officials that you really are entitled to the benefit.

That can be hard to understand, tho, if you haven't gone through it.

The forms are a nightmare to complete. I had help with my first form and kept a record of it. I use the same answers to most of the questions and add to the parts that show my condition has deteriorated. If they turn me down at least I can ask why when I showed the same evidence in previous accepted claims I no longer qualify.

You have to repeat yourself over and over. I'm sure it's deliberate to try to catch you out.

My mh condition has many hidden aspects and these are virtually impossible to prove. For example, I have to be monitored when I first fall asleep as, for some unknown reason, in the early stages of sleep I often hit myself in the face. Not a light slap but a full blown punch, usually aimed at my eyes or nose. I don't know I'm doing it until I wake up in pain as the punch lands. DH says there are warning movements that he has come to recognise and he does his best to prevent the blows hitting their target. How do I prove that to a DWP clerk.. ask them to send someone to sleep with me ?

I won't be the only one with hidden symptoms but not everyone will be able to complete the forms.

Jen I know the suggestion has been made for GPs to resign their contracts.
I just don't think it will happen.
That still leaves all the hospital doctors 'propping up the system' as you put it.

And do you really want the system to collapse completely? Reforming it is one thing. Dumping it, and all those dependent on it, with all its faults, is like pulling down your imperfect house in midwinter before you start looking for another.

durhamjen. Are you suggesting that people like Galen who are used as part of the system, should downtools?

If all the doctors working for the NHS resigned in protest, along with all those attempting to administer the benefits and taxcation systems fairly, it might hasten The Revolution but an awful lot of citizens wouldn't make it through to the New Jerusalem.