in being disgusted with Oxford SU inviting Marine Lepen???

Free speech goes all the way. Nothing barred.

Again thanks- perhaps leave it at that. Organising a series of lectures for older people here (Univ 3rd Age)- I am very aware that with only so many meetings per year- who one invites, or not- is a dilemma. Perhaps that is where we might agree to disagree- free speech is paramount, but giving a platform to do so is perhaps a step too far from me. If extremists want a platform, they can find their own ;)

Thanks all.

jura, not wanting someone with whose views one disagrees to have a 'platform' (i.e. denying them the right to speak publicy) is tantamount to saying that you do not believe in free speech.

There was a demonstration in London recently, of mainly Muslims, objecting to Charlie Hebdo — the opposite of the large demo in France after the killings at that magazine office. I do not agree with what the London demonstrators were saying. I'd really rather they didn't say it. But I'm glad they are able to express their views in the UK.

This (my disagreement) applies to quite a lot of the more extreme views, at both ends of the political spectrum, expressed in Britain, but I just have to put up with that because I live in a democracy where freedom of speech is allowed.

According to this link, she spoke last thursday with no journalists allowed. And spoke the entire time in french.

www.globalresearch.ca/french-national-front-leader-marine-le-pen-addresses-oxford-union/5430116

I would have thought that her impact would have been limited.

Sorry, not sure what you are saying. It relates to the UK as she was given a platform for her ideas at the Oxford Union.

But I am not sure how that relates to the UK.
You think she has a larger agenda than France?

Perhaps I am asking a daft question?

I thought that would have come through in my comments- re racism in France re people of North African origin, the old Maghreb colonies- most of them of course, French for generations- but still not accepted. It is a two way thing- many French will tell you that it is because they do not integrate- but it is very hard to integrate when you grow up in awful ghetto communities on the edge of towns, with poor education- and then, even for those that do succeed and do well, find it impossible to find jobs, flats, a loan to start a business, etc, etc, etc. When I have time I'll tell you about a young French woman who stayed with us for a year in the UK- and her family's experiences- it it very very difficult for them in FRance, even with a Uni Degree and good qualifications (which few obtain due to the above conditions).

Marine is a woolf very well hidden in sheep's clothing- which has allowed her a great following. She knows how to market herself and her ideas, and it makes her so much more dangerous for it. At least with her father, you knew where you stood.

Not sure about the answer to the question in the OP. As you said soontobe, she is probably on this side of that line. France has awful problems with racism- and her large following, especially in rural areas- is concerning. Hence my original question.

What are your particular concerns about Lepen speaking in Oxford granjura?

There are many ways of taking pride in your own country without being racist though- especially when it comes to 3rd, 4th... generation immigrants.

Tricia I think the French are far more openly political as well. Having strong connections with France (my daughter lived there for years and I spent many a summer holiday working there) i found them very ready to discuss all things political. Indeed, after their health, it seemed to be their favourite topic. And yes, they take a great pride in their own country.

granjura - I agree that France is much more openly "racist" than the UK.
Apart from all the trouble with the Arab immigrants (which to some extent France brought on herself with her colonial policies), there are very strong feelings of nationalism - France for the French - especially in rural areas. Land ownership is cherished, millions of farmers have their own few hectares, and often outsiders aren't welcome and are made to know it. I think this is where the FN get a lot of their support.

And I have already said that the Lepen speaker may be short of the line.

Thank you all again- food for thought. The OP was not a statement, but a question- to be discussed, so that it all good.

Why Bags? As said, many people do have views, opnions, political or otherwise- and they are totally free to speak their mind. Does not mean I'd want to necessarily give them a platform- they can find their own. But I see what you mean- and agree to some extent.

France is riddled with deep rooted racism, and the recent events have exarcebated this in a terrible fashion- the whole country is on tender hooks and divided on how to proceed. 2nd, 3rd, 4th and more generation immigrants of North African origin are still treated like 3rd class cititzens- and in the South, often by 2nd,3rd and 4th generation immigrants whose family originally came from Italy or Spain. So the timing was particularly poor, I feel. Perhaps those who have not lived in France may find this difficult to understand. Marine's ideas and opinions are just like her father's- she is just much better at presentation and marketing.

I take the point though that information is everywhere.

Elegran. You assume that future leaders, having heard all ideas, reject say holocaust denier ideas. Some wont.
You assume that they will all reject IS. Some wont.

Sometimes the conclusions are not rejected.

In some cases, ignorance is indeed bliss.

"Learning from history" also includes learning what other people think, and rejecting their conclusions if we don't like them. We don't want our leaders (or anyone else) to be ignorant of what is going on in the minds and planning ofother nationalities, do we?

If the leaders have never heard any of the arguments for bad philosophies - and debated them so that they think up and hear from others the arguments against them - they will not have the background to resist them later. That is also what those of us mean who say that we want children to be exposed to other opinions than those they are accustomed to hearing, just as we want them to have friends of different races and sexes.

The Oxford Union where Marine le Pen was talking is not a Students Union mainly for social things. It is a separate debating society, where students and invitedt guests speak for and against a subject. That way things are aired and discussed and points made against as well as for.

It is just a pity that they did not open up this meeting as a debate and have speakers against her as well - that would have given the opposite views as well. Perhaps they did not want it to disintegrate into a brawl?

My husband loves history.
He says that we can learn form history.
When I ask him what aspects, he says that we can learn how not to make the same mistakes again.

Well yes. All very well. But if our leaders dont do this, it does not matter that he, my husband, sitting at the kitchen table, has learnt what mistakes not to do from history. It matters not one jot.

Yes I know that tax avoidance is not illegal.

If they had a talk from HSBC. Many leaders who love tax avoidance?
[perhaps this has already happened]

Taking it to its extreme. Many leaders who are holocaust deniers?

If our leaders come from a bunch of people who believe in (i.e. support, stand up for) free speech, how is that a bad thing?

This is a good article.

The only, fairly unique problem with Oxford Union is that it has a much higher volume of people who go on to be leaders.

rosequartz. Soutra lifted one of my posts to you from another thread. She is talking about my typo.

It is a sign of maturity in a child when they can think for them selves and have views and attitudes that are different from their parents and discuss them rationally. And it is a sign of maturity in their parents if they can respect these different views even if the child is still of school age and discuss them with them in a rational manner.

One of the biggest causes of discord in my home as a child was that I thought differently to my parents and they were always dismissive of my views, their favourite phrase was 'You will think differently when you grow up' - I didn't, so my mother became convinced that I was likely to be easily persuaded by any passing fad. (didn't she know me?) and was always warning me of the dangers of Scientology, communism and any other 'ology' or 'ism' that she read about and was worried by.

I don't think the Oxford Union is so prestigious as it once was and, perhaps, as it likes to think it still is. The world – and technology in particular – has changed beyond recognition since Harold MacMillan (???) called it the last bastion of free speech. Soundbites and channel surfing rule and with all the changes to the way UK universities operate, I don't think there's much general interest these days in the opinions of members of the University of Oxford.