ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

We never argued,barely a cross word in 27 years then wham; it's all over, like we don't exist and never did.

I remember him once saying to me that he didn't know what he'd do without me and I told him he'd never have too. 'Even when I'm gone I'll watch over you until the end of time'. In 3 months it will be the third anniversary of his abandonment of us and I still can't believe it.

Hugs smileless is hard but we had lovley afternoon with Monika and Danika she is sooo cute and so good bles her heart ! Pottering round our garden, and we found so e books in loft, she also enjoyed watering garden !

I am So fond of Monika that I can chat to her about lot stuff it so helps having lost my daughter.

Happy weekend all.

Hi everyone, I am a grandparent who has been rejected by my only daughter - I haven't seen my three grandchildren since June 2015 and since December 2015, she has instructed me by text that she wants no further contact with me. Although our relationship has never been brilliant - it was always tough because her dad was always working against me when I tried to discipline her - e.g. she told me that when I wouldn't allow her dessert because she wouldn't eat her main meal, he used to take her dessert to her when she was in bed! She became spoilt and always expected to get her own way and this became clear when he left me in 2001 when she was 15 - she was rebellious towards me, trashing her bedroom, inviting friends and boys to the house, staying out late, getting pregnant and then blaming me for her abortion, etc. I made the mistake of calling her dad after two years when I was at the end of my tether - he then picked her up and then she blamed me for throwing her out! She got pregnant with my first grandchild 10 years ago, when she was 19, when living with her dad. To cut a long story short, I have been there for her through each of the 3 pregnancies and babysitting, car ferrying etc and forged a strong and loving relationship with each of the 3 children, now aged 6, 7 and 10. My sister has continued to see my ex and poisoned my daughter against me - saying I'm a bad mother etc - all very deceitful - it's been a very bad time for me since my daughter actually cut me out of her and the children's lives completely - but I have recently joined the Bristol Grandparents' Support Group and started my own local GSG on Facebook. It has been a lifesaver and I'm now focussing my attention on seeing my daughter and grandchildren again, even if it means changing the law. If anyone is in this situation, you may wish to join too - if you want to contact me, my email address is [email protected]. Best wishes, Tina

GN can be like a hornets nest sometimes

You just have to be grateful when its not you getting stung .

I hear what some are saying, that its always happened or this strand wont work for research purposes BUT in my experience things were different 40 years ago. When you married, you became family with your in laws. You treated your MiL or in laws who were aunts or uncles married in, as family. In my experience, I loved my MiL and FiL as family and would no more have dreamt of rejecting them than flying to the moon.
I and others in my large then family would do everything to reconcile arguments, including making sure my DH always saw and spoke to his own mother. My own grandparents and my sons grandparents were as important as parents in the influence and bringing up of us and our children. Even when divorced I would no more have thought of cutting out my own MiL then widowed, from my DS life than fly to the moon. And she was a powerful domineering retired civil servant but it was my job to make sure my DS saw her as he adored her.
Now I think in laws are not considered as family in the same way. There is no loyalty as a family.
In my case my DiL made it plain to my DS from the start that her family came and comes first.
And her family were not her favourites either - she and her mother did not get on, she is a daddys girl.

In my opinion, the need to control everything,jealousy,resentment and character traits that make communication difficult have all contributed. Weakness on my DS part too. His confidence was very low when he met her and he blamed all his family when describing them at the start of their relationship. They met online in a chat room, and within 12 weeks were expecting. DiL was living with a boyfriend when their relationship started.
My DS has had the mickey taken out of him by her family in front of me 2 years before the estrangement, about the meeting on line. I only intervened once when I could stand it no more.

What doesn't help is the DGs look like me and DiL has expressed hurt that her DDs don't look like her.

I only found out 2 years ago that my DS father, my exDH had been denied ever meeting the DGDs. He has now but it had been both of us estranged at one point.

I feel hurt and miss my DGDs, DS terribly but I don't miss the nastiness that had emerged and I thank God I am not having to tiptoe around them and be ordered around.

My exDH nearly effected a reconciliation 18 months ago but it was stopped by the DiL and exDH is too kind to tell me why. I received an email then from my DS saying he prays for me everyday but he doesn't plan to see me again.

It has caused me physical illness - being isolated from DS and family has a caustic affect. I sometimes have to have care from social services. So it must cost the country money, all this family estrangement, in health costs at the very least.

I agree with GNHQ its an area that needs research.

Stand Alone is a UK charity that offers support to those who are estranged.

It has also conducted some research into estrangement: standalone.org.uk/reports/

My mil decided before she met me that she didn't like me and spent the whole of our relationship proving that. I had a lovely relationship with my fil and my husband and I provided end of life care for him so that he could die at home. We looked after mil after his death and even though she made it very clear that she despised us both she loved our daughter. For years we cooked and cleaned and spent our weekends and evenings attending to her. One day dh went round with my daughter and she turned on her. My daughter walked out and dh followed, we've never been back and mil has never called. I ask my daughter often if she wants me to reestablish contact but she doesn't.

My mil's need to hate me over rides her need to have a loving relationship with her son and granddaughter.

Sometimes people are so toxic that they can make your life a misery and there comes a time when you say no more.

There is only so much you can do, so much you can give.

Otw -I agree that family estrangements are becoming more common and that there is a sociological shift. We have moved, from the 1980s onwards, to a much more individualised society. Before then with both marriage and extended family relationships there was a focus on making things work-whatever an individual's own feelings. The only reason to cut off was extreme abuse-otherwise abandoning extended family was shameful. This has changed.

I agree that research into this would be a good thing but I would caution people against relating their stories on this semi-open site, especially if there is any glimmer of hope of a reconciliation. Its possible that your family would view it as disrespecting their privacy.

When people post about estrangement (both adult children and their parents) they tend to project their own experiences onto others when giving advice. My view is that each situation differs-each unhappy family is unhappy in their own way. I have seen several different backgrounds to estrangement.
*A background of domestic violence, if the mother stayed she is seen as week and failing to protect-if she left the abuser alienates the children from her as a punishment.
* Mental illness in the parent, adult child or both.
*adult child marries a control freak who sets out to isolate them from their family of origin
* an overly critical or abusive parent
*an over- close relationship between parent and adult child-adult child feels they have to do something dramatic to individuate-they feel they are doing something strong.
That's just a start, sometimes one person is clearly the problem-more often its a complicated dynamic.

What is sad is when it could be improved but one party totally refuses to communicate.

To those saying its depressing to read about these "unfortunate parents"-it is one of the most distressing things that can happen to a parent. The only way though is to keep loving your family and give them freedom to make their own decision. Build up your own life. Very worrying though when the adult child is in an abusive marriage/relationship.

www.nextavenue.org/why-some-grown-kids-cut-their-parents/

This is a very interesting analysis of reasons for estrangement

Thanks for the link Mair. As a parent who has been estranged from her youngest son for more than 4 years, I've read many articles on the subject and have to say that stating that loving a child, caring for and nurturing them, supporting and encouraging them and doing one's best to make sure they grow up with self esteem, makes less sense to me than the estrangement itself, which incidentally makes no sense at all.

My uttercomes from the fact that we have another son, he's 20 months older than his brother and both were raised in exactly the same way. There are so many, too many[thcsad]living with estrangement from one child who have others that they continue to have a 'normal' relationship with, as we do with our DS.

If the fault really does rest with the upbringing of these AC, why doesn't it affect their other parent AC relationships?

I guess, Smileless, that everyone is different, some are more easily hurt or angered than others. Some have more of a sense of guilt (so do not wish to cause pain) while others are harder and non empathetic. Some are naturally more independent so do not need their parents when they become adults making it a whole lot easier to cut off.

I think we all need to be aware as we get older our childrens' power grows while ours diminishes.

There have been many comments on the thread that estrangement is growing, but I wonder is this because historically there was plenty of scope for angry grown up children who did not enjoy contact with their parents to keep them at a distance? Even a move across country meant that they might rarely speak and only make one visit a year! A move overseas could result in decades of nothing more than letters and photographs of grandchilren.

In this age of mass communicationn and easy transport, we have come to expect a level of contact that in the past only those children who chose to remain in their home town would offer.

Is estrangment a reaction to an inability to create 'distance' by some more acceptable means?

I don't think that "estrangement (is) a reaction to an inability to create 'distance' by some more acceptable means". Cutting parents out of your life and GP's out of their GC's lives is cruel and vindictive.

To know that you'll never again hear a kind word from your own child, hear the sound of their voice, give and receive that once treasured hug and know your own GC is a terrible pain to have to live with.

If an AC's genuine reason for having no further contact with their parents is because they simply don't need or want them any more, then why do so many of them find it necessary to send cruel texts, letters and emails? Why don't they just say 'goodbye' and leave it at that? God knows that's hard enough but many of us are lied about, all the good that we ever did for them forgotten or portrayed as our desire to control.

Before we moved almost 2 months ago, our ES would walk past our house with the GC he wouldn't allow us to have contact with, he still on occasion has them playing outside my mother's house and she isn't allowed contact with them either; that's why we moved. If he wanted 'distance' he could have moved but they prefer to continue living in a house they could never have afforded without our financial contribution and that made by my brother who he wont have anything to do with either.

In our ES's case estrangement is due to his inability to behave like a civilised and decent human being.

Smileless
Please dont think I am suggesting its acceptable to do this. My heart goes out to you and any parent in your position. Short of ones child dying or a serious illness there can be little worse! And I am not complacent about this because one of my own DCs is nowhere as close to me as he used to be, sometimes rude, and although we have reasonably regular telephone contact he rarely visits.

I just wonder if in the past children who felt this way just went off maybe not even saying nasty things (even though they had nasty thoughts), but it was so easy to create physical separateness from their parents and very limited communication. I think for example of one of my grandfathers who was angry that his father had remarried. He joined the army and went off for a few years. There was no official estrangment but I bet there was little communication.

I'm sorry Mair that the once close relationship you had with one of your children has changed.

Yes, I see what you mean in your last paragraph and it does pose the question why, when it would be so easy to create distance, have little contact and create as you say an'unofficial estrangement' that some AC do so in such an obvious and cruel manner?

I'm glad that you still have reasonable regular telephone contact and understand totally how hard it must be for you to see him/her infrequently.

I hope that this coming year will see an increase in those visits for you and that things will improve.

I'll go with 80% Nature, 20% Nuture. Maybe it's in these estranged AC 's DNA to behave as they do.

I know of a family of four children where the 2nd child has completey cut contact with her parents, siblings, uncles and aunts etc. She is, apparently, quite happy living her life without any family contact. No one knows why, but she was always an 'awkward' child. Any attempt to contact her now is met with a rebuff.

Cheers smileless,
I wish you well too and hope you can reestablish at least some minimal contact with your son and GC. I am sure he knows your door is open any time, but I wonder have you made clear to him that the house move does not mean youve hardened your heart?

Yes, I see what you mean in your last paragraph and it does pose the question why, when it would be so easy to create distance, have little contact and create as you say an'unofficial estrangement' that some AC do so in such an obvious and cruel manner?
But my point is that in this modern day and age creating distance IS more difficult. Perhaps for whatever reason your son does not feel he wants to or is even able to move away and create physical space that way. I don't know why he has said cruel things but perhaps this is simply for him an uncontrollable reaction he feels to the family fusion, and a way to justify to himself his own need for distance. What I am trying to say is that his intention may not really be to hurt you, but hurting is the only way he perceives he can create the distance he needs to be him?
(I am assuming of course that there was no specific events or behaviours he has cited which triggered his estrangement).

I'm glad that you still have reasonable regular telephone contact and understand totally how hard it must be for you to see him/her infrequently. I hope that this coming year will see an increase in those visits for you and that things will improve.
I doubt there'll be any change in the coming year since he is weighed down under pressure of study and a demanding job smileless. We have to settle for what he wants to offer, at present at least. I feel trying to be supportive but give him the space he wants is probably the best approach.

Smileless -I think each case is different and I was trying to suggest a lot of different scenarios. I do think SOME estranged children feel enmeshed with their parent and can't see a different way to create distance. I know full well how much it hurts-it has happened to me.(I was suddenly and completely cut off from much loved daughter and grandchildren)

The danger with forums-both on mumsnet and here is that people project their own situations when advising other people.

On MN this means that people with very abusive parents assume that everyone else complaining about their mum has an abusive mum-and the label "narcissist"is thrown around too easily. On here it means that there is an assumption that all grandparents are well-meaning and ill-used. Neither of these things is always the case. Sometimes one person (SIL, DIL, difficult parent) is to blame. More often it is a long complex story.

Imam sorry grannie anonymous that u were like myself suddenly cut off from daughter and grandchildren.?It hurts like hell doesn't it.

You are right it is i guess a complex issue,m I would not wish it on anyone even my worst least favourite person.

There is no pain like it to me anyway,

However we can't control o our children's behaviour or indeed anyone's if they choose to be cruel and devoid of compassion that is their prerogative,

Fortunately we have made a good life without her and are lucky to have a son who cares and other relatives so there is light at end of tunnel for us.

I sincerely hope,there is for you too

I emailed our ES 'goodbye' before we moved Mair. I hoped that leaving our home of 28 years in the village where we'd lived for 30 would bring me some peace and would do the same for him. Our new home has made a huge difference to our quality of life, more than we'd thought possible.

Our eldest GS who'll be 5 in a few days will soon want to be outside with his friends. I didn't want to see that and I'm sure our ES and his wife will feel happier relaxing his boundaries when the time is right, knowing that he wont be bumping into the GP's they've worked so hard to keep away from him.

I told our ES that I loved him and that there was a piece of my heart that belonged to him and him alone. The email I received in response was vile to say the least and I responded by thanking him for sending it as he'd confirmed that I was right to say goodbye. I shan't be contacting him again.

I think your response to the current situation with your son in trying to be supportive and giving him space is the right course of action and I do hope that things improve.

Sorry that you too are estranged from your D and GC grannieanonomous. It is difficult not to draw on ones own experiences when discussing certain issues. I don't agree that it's necessarily a bad thing providing you make it clear that you are drawing on personal experience and not simply making sweeping statements.

When it comes to estrangement, I think it's helpful to know that others have similar experiences and that you're not alone. It was 3 months before I told my dearest friend what had happened with our son, such was the enormity of the shame I felt. I was convinced that people would think we must have done something to deserve it, the old 'there's no smoke without fire' and sadly in a few cases that is indeed how it was viewed. Not I hasten to add by family members and friends who've known us for many years, since the boys were little and spent a lot of time with us as a family.

There have been many occasions here on GN when an AC who has cut off all contact with their parents has explained the reasons behind their decision, and have been understood and supported in many instances by GP's who themselves have been cut out.

As I've said, it's one thing to distance yourself from your parents, even cut them out completely but I see no reason or justification in compounding the hurt by doing so in the cruelest way possible.

Celebgran - Have you ever read the story of King David and his son Absolom? It's been going on since time immoral (as my DH says).
In our extended families there are a few examples of one doesn't speak to another, and the family of my best friend, because of some hurt caused. Sadly, it becomes a habit.

Have you ever read the story of King David and his son Absolom? It's been going on since time immoral (as my DH says).

And of course the Prodigal son.

Smileless are you sure your son is sending the emails not his wife or relatives? To my way of thinking having the children walk past or play out where you can see them makes me wonder if he wants you to see them but isn't allowed. But I haven't followed all you have said on the other thread.

Yeah life really is too short isn't it?

Often think of title track old film paint your,wagon line goes sun can hurt your eyes,but only people make you cry.

Very true.

Yes prodigal daughter in my case bel mooneymadvised me to focus more on my husband than ,y prodicgal daughter good advice,

I really think there needs to be a mediation service available for family estrangement, especially parent and AC.

I believe even when feelings are strong, that at least some limited contact could be agreed, even if as little as a monthly email.