ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

It's "I'm entitled because I want what I want right now" and yes that's an opinion.

Considering the notion that children's partners do have rights to their own desires is not rubbish.

We all have different t sides of our personalities that we reveal to different people unact as if this is a huge discovery
&
If someone is a bully people are well aware it is part of their personality

^ which is it then?

Notanan welcome to real world, no one is perfect all the time! We all have different t sides of our personalities that we reveal to different people unact as if this is a huge discovery ???

I have never read such a load of garbisn! If someone is a bully people are well aware it is part of their personality sorry I didn't mean to respond and dignify such rubbish.,

Fairydoll have a wonderful holiday, my daughter partner comes from s Africa,!

I think u deserve it we have had lovley evening out, and I could t have stood the repeated hogwash from notanan.

Remember what u said to me yesterday ? For whatever reason boring lives or whatever who knows some people just want to cause trouble ifmthr cap fits notanan!

Notanan is spot on. The whole boxed set. If all her posts are read with an open mind and no fore notions.

Bullies don't bully EVERYONE
The nastiest of bullies ofent only bully a select few (or one), and make sure that nobody believes that person because they're so nice to everyone else

in which case you're misreading my point

Im not saying that two people who have had the same experience of something react differently (Because one's a "Strong person" and the other isn't ) - I'm saying that nobody experiences anyone else in the same way as another person does.

People can have a boss who is tougher on them than on their colleague
People can have a parent who doesn't bond with them but feels bonded to their siblings
People can have a sibling who is nasty to them but they are nice to a third sibling
People can have friends who only show a wonderful side of themselves to friends but have a nasty side that only those behind closed doors experience etc…..

You are making the point yourself! A man (or woman) can return from deployment in a war zone and be deeply affected, but another man won't be.

It depends on an individuals character. It's all in the DNA. Thus, two children raised in the same family circumstances can react entirely differently to situations they encounter in life.

In one study (in USA I believe) it was shown that some habitual criminals had an extra chromosome. In this instance the parents can no more be blamed for their offsprings behaviour than they can be blamed for having a child with a physical defect.

I won't be posting for a while as, not only am I boring myself now, I am off to South Africa on Friday for a bit of sun and I really must get on with packing!

By the way, should rapists/murderers/paedophiles blame their parents?

I don't think any child is born bad if that's what you're asking
I don't think the parents are always the cause of the damage, there can be lots of causes of PTSS and other issues that can cause people to become somehow "wired wrong"
However if someone is stating that the trauma that they are unable to get over and that is affecting their lives is as a result of their parents, or a deployment with the army, or an attack, or something else.. I'm enclined to believe that that is their experience of that, and it's the cause of their problems.

If a troop go overseas to fight, some will be unable to function normally in society on return, others won't. The ones who aren't are not wrong in saying that that stint overseas is the root of their problems just because many of their comrades who were deployed at the same time are "fine"

I think it's very possible that an individual child could know some sides to a parent that even their siblings or close friends never see.

Some parents struggle to bond with one child and not another from birth for various reasons, but "fake it" well on front of others, even close relatives and friends. Just because they appear doting to everyone else, does not mean that the child is wrong if they say that their own experience of that family was not a positive one

Fairydoll, you stated yoursel up thread that that individual does indeed himself say that he has issues about his childhood, yet you think you know more about his personal experiences of his parents behind closed doors than he does because you are "close friends with his parents"

There are addicts who say that their issues started later in life, e.g after trauma or misfortune, but where someone is actually saying that they had a rubbish experience at home, you enjoying his parents as friends, and his brother being "fine", does not discredit his younique experiences and perspectives of being that child of his parents.

When you refer to the case I mentioned (addiction) you are talking sheer, utter, uninformed nonsense.

The family have been close friends of mine for 35 years.
Both boys went to the same Uni within a year of each other but unfortunately the youngest one got in with the 'wrong' crowd and started experimenting with drugs. His brother was powerless to stop him. His parents have been to hell and back.
There is simply no way that his problems are 'rooted in childhood.' That is an insult to caring dedicated parents.

in modern society it seems almost de rigueur to blame parents (and everyone else) for our own shortcomings and failures.

By the way, should rapists/murderers/paedophiles blame their parents? They could all get away with it, and their parents could serve their prison sentences. Unfortunately, at the moment, that's not an option

I know you're commenting on the topic in general but, in general you seem unable to accept that a once close and loving relationship with an adult child can be destroyed by the man or woman they choose as a partner

course it can, although if it is about control/abuse it won't just manifest with family members

However I strongly object to the comparison with other ACs or ILs as "proof" that someone is a good parent! Or to discredit an ACs or ILs grievance.

Addicts were mentioned uptread, and I think that it is entirely possible for an addict to have a "socially functioning" sibling, and yet at the same time have their addiction and problems are rooted in childhood

No, I know you're commenting on the topic in general but, in general you seem unable to accept that a once close and loving relationship with an adult child can be destroyed by the man or woman they choose as a partner.

If our ES had genuine issues with us, why hasn't he ever said what these 'issues' are

as I said before, I'm not commenting on anyone's specific situation just the topic in general..

so in general, a possible reason would be if they're the type of people who there's no poin in discussing it with, i.e. the type of people who would reply with "well your brother never had a problem with us" or "well you never said anything at the time" etc etc.

There are lots of potential reasons why someone's NC is not caused by their partner, but having their partner there has sped it up or catalysed it.

An AC may "keep peace" with their parents face to face but offload about how damaging they find their relationship to their partner to the point where their partner may say "why on earth would we let them do the same to the children if they're as awful as you say?" - so the actual moment of NC may come from the DIL/SIL, but is not caused by them IYKWIM

Well notanan, our ES doesn't appear to have a problem with his childhood. We have an email from him, sent last summer in which he says he had a good childhood. He talks to his brother about their childhood, family holidays etc and how much fun they were.

I will repeat something I've posted on more than one occasion. About 18 months into our estrangement we were concerned that there were problems in their marriage (they had broken up about 4 months before but got back together). We thought out son was living in the house alone so walked down to see if he was OK.

Had we known she was there we wouldn't have gone. As we were trying to talk to him she was inside, slamming doors and making her annoyance that we were there very obvious.

Our ES said to me "we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble". Seems pretty clear to me notanan that our son's problem isn't with us, it's because his wife doesn't want anything to do with us although she'd spent the previous 3.5 years telling us how much she loved us etc., and doesn't want him to have anything to do with us either.

Your example of someone returning a meal in a restaurant because it's cold and being told that no one else has complained is meaningless. If our ES had genuine issues with us, why hasn't he ever said what these 'issues' are? Why has he told lies to explain his actions? Why has he cut himself off from his entire family apart from his brother?

"Oh I have a nice adult child, SIL/ DIL so it can't be my fault and must be DIL etc is not something I buy, personally". Well I hope you never find yourself in the position that we are in, but if you do you may see things differently.

I'm sure you have a valid point (somewhere) but it's all getting a bit heavy now.
You've probably proved a point. Hope others will read it

Imagine going to HR to report some serious bullying only to be told "when none of your colleagues have complained and they work in the same office as you every day so it must just be you".

Would you persevere and try to work things out with that company? most would just quit

Same for people who grew up unhappily in families that their siblings are fine with

also, the kinda people who say "well my other child is fine so I don't see how I can be to blame for anything" are not going to be the kinda people who are easy to work things out with are they?

What's the point if everything will be met with "well your brother is fine"?

no two children have exactly the same experience of their home lives, it's personal to each of them, even if they're twins they're different people. Just because one says everything was fine does not mean that everything was fine for the other

Okay well here's a crude example

Introverted "bookish" academic type parents have one introvert child and one extrovert child.

Now I know many lovely wonderful introverts (who are totaly worth the LOOOONG amount of time it takes to gain their friendship) who absolutely HATE going to playgroups or playdates or anything to do with school gates etc, but do it for the sake of their children if that's what the child wants/needs.

But for the sake of this example, these particular parents don't do any of the above, and continue to like to close the door to the world and have a quiet life and don't make any concessions for their extravert child. Not all parents treat all their children well.

Now the children grow up, and as you do, when they meet their future partners, they tell them about their lives/upbringing:

Introvert adult child: My parents are lovely people, home was my refuge from the world, they never forced me to be outgoing and always took an interest in my reading and my projects, they'ld sit for hours reading with me or doing my puzzles/models, you'll like them, they're really calm and lovely. My brother was always a bit of an attention seeker though he was always damaging my stuff we weren't really close growing up, he always seemed to throw a spanner in things and was always breaking my models. He was always trying to make everything about him and acted out

Extravert adult child: I never really "fit" and my parents never really accepted me for who I am, everything was geared up around their interests and my brothers interest, there were lots of books and model building but I was never taken to football practice or anything sporty or social, I was really lonely at home, my parents didn't like the noise and mess of playdates so I wasn't really able to have friends over. I was really bored and lonely but always got told off if I tried to play with my brother because his reading/model building, he was their favourite and my interests didn't really get a look in. I was always negatively compaired to him. I really missed having people and activity about so when I was a teenager I went after that in all the wrong places. My parents were never interested in getting to know my friends parents so they never really knew what was going on in my life and I ended up getting into a lot of trouble.

Which is why this idea that "oh I have a "nice" adult child/SIL/DIL so it can't be my fault and must be because of DIL etc" is not something I buy, personally.

To re-iterate, because it seems I have to-

I am not estranged from my AC or my DGS!

My posts are based on the fact that .......*There but for the grace of God, Go I*

Estrangement can happen to anyone at any time. It only takes one person who has 'issues' to cause a shit load lot of problems in what has once been a close, loving family.

I think you're digging too deeply into my example!

It's a given (in my example) that both AC's have had a happy and secure childhood.

I do know one family where the boys, only a year apart, view their childhood vastly differently. One of them has had multiple problems with drink and drugs and blames it on everyone else (including his parents - friends I have known 35 years) teachers, friends, room mates etc etc.
They see him rarely,but recently he turned up asking for money and informed them his girlfriend (a drug addict also, apparently, is pregnant). When they refused to give him money (knowing it would end up in a drug dealer's pocket) he told them to forget seeing their grandchild when it's born. They are in despair and are desperately worried about this new baby when it's born. Will it survive etc etc. They have been in counselling several times over the years but have never managed to figure out where or, more importantly, If they went wrong. They will be estranged grandparents soon and that is very very sad. And their addict son will blame them, no doubt.

Or maybe the poster and DIL just don't get on and it escalated?
To blame it on a bad childhood isn't really fair.