ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Regarding borderline personality disorder - I am pretty sure our DIL has mental health issues. I have described her as being `unbalanced` - that is not an insult - it is because we (including my son) never know how she is going to act - one minute nice as pie, the next totally unreasonable. She was always volatile but this worsened after the birth of their first child and she convinced everyone she had postnatal depression - and of course my son felt that if she really was ill he should do all he could not to upset her. Seven years on I can`t believe she still has PND - and during all of this she has still managed to do everything that she wants to do - the `depression` only seems to affect things she doesn`t want to do. (And don`t attack me for not understanding depression - I have personal experience of it and understand it very well)

PND can last for years, I had it.
It manifests in other ways, for example I'm left with chronic Anxiety and now have a panic disorder, my DD is 7 and it's all down to PND.
A friend of mine has regular bouts of depression now.

So you could be right and it's manifested as something else. It's important to remember that the person doesn't choose that way, it's an illness.

I don't agree that I was attacking on a different issue IcantEven. This thread is about estrangement, about cutting people put of others' lives. Your posts are very well written and articulate; I don't understand how having read this thread in its entirety you can't see that some posters disregard the other point of view that some P's and GP's are CO when they've done nothing to warrant this action.

I think I know who you were referring too Bibbity, and if my memory serves me correctly the lady saw the pictures she posted on social media. They'd already been 'put out there' by the mother. They weren't pictures she'd taken without the mother's consent, how could they have been, she hasn't had any contact with her D for years. Her D may not have been aware that her EM had seen the pictures but putting them on a social media site herself she risked her mother finding them. Something everyone should bear in mind before making family photos public.

A lot of similarities with your d.i.l. and ours eddiecat.

Even if someone does have mental health issues (and I do accept they are illnesses) I don`t know if that necessarily means that their difficult behaviour should always be excused. My DIL`s own parents seem to go out of their way not to upset her - they seem almost frightened of her reaction - I suspect there may have been incidents in her past that we don`t know about.
I also think that knowing someone is ill doesn`t necessarily help - if they won`t accept they have a problem themselves how can anyone move forward? She has seen counsellors in the past but stops the sessions if they want to talk about something she doesn`t want to.

Ignoring an issue, tip toeing around it isn't going to help. As you say, if someone does have a problem but wont or can't accept they do, they're not going to be able to seek help.

Our ES also seems to go out of his way not to upset his wife; almost frightened of her reaction. About 18 months into our estrangement we were worried about our ES and went down to see if he was OK; as you probably know he lived just down the road which is why we moved. He looked terrible and he could see how upset I was. I stretched my arms out to him, and with the sound of doors slamming in the background he said "we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble".

I haven't seen either of them for sometime now, but the last time I did, they both looked awful. Our ES has gained an awful lot of weight. My friend who still lives in the village saw them a couple of weeks ago and said they looked unkempt, as if they had the weight of the world on their shoulders.

It's not easy bringing up two little ones with very little or no family support. I worry about our ES and the children, I want them to be happy, to feel safe and secure; it's just so very sad.

Their behaviour can't be helped, you can't switch it on and off, it's always there.

If she has said she has PND she has admitted it, going to a counsellor proves that. Councillors don't normally want to upset their client so take a few approaches plus you don't know what goes on in there, you don't know what has been said.

No one else really has to move forward, the only person who does is the person who is depressed. Despression is there ALL the time, they have to learn to live with it. Avoiding triggers and sometimes being selfish buy putting themselves first because if they don't, it starts all over again.

Ladies, I'm not trying to be confrontational or annoying but I do have a genuine question. Have any of you ever thought of working in some way with children and families? I don't mean this as a substitute for your own dc/dgc but in helping other youngsters and getting to know them you may find it helps your healing process. There are so many little (and big) mites out there needing help and support. SS often run programmes where experienced mums and grans help disadvantaged families, can't remember what they're called. Play ladies in hospitals, helping at playgroups, reading partners at local primary, Brownies, Cubs, babysitting, child minding, children's charities, respite care.....lots of things out there always needing people.

Just wondering

I have thought about it Katek but even though it's been more than 4 years I don't feel ready too just yet.

I still find that on occasions I get rather emotional when I see children the same ages as our GC, especially little boys. We spent a long weekend in Las Vegas last year with the son of 2 of our oldest and dearest friends, his wife and family.

It was wonderful but there were times when it was hard too. Their newest arrival will be christened soon and we've been asked to be God parents; I can't put into words how happy we are at the prospect. Perhaps that weekend pent with them and the christening will be for me the first step in being happy to be around small children again.

Thanks for your suggestion, it's certainly worthy of plenty of thought.

Smileless: "Our ES also seems to go out of his way not to upset his wife; almost frightened of her reaction. About 18 months into our estrangement we were worried about our ES and went down to see if he was OK; as you probably know he lived just down the road which is why we moved. He looked terrible and he could see how upset I was. I stretched my arms out to him, and with the sound of doors slamming in the background he said "we mustn't do this, it causes too much trouble"."

I totally identify with the way you describe your ES's behaviour - it's similar to me with my mum. If you're trying to maintain a relationship with someone with personality disorder traits who doesn't recognise the issues in their own behaviour, keeping the peace is exhausting and difficult. I really feel for you, and all those affected by people with these behaviours, whether GP, AC or IL - it's hideous to deal with and affects us all similarly.

FightingEstrangement. It's very comforting to read a post from someone who sadly has first hand experience of trying to deal with this type of behaviour from her own mother, and is able to show empathy and understanding to a mother and GM, who is on the receiving end and not the perpetrator.

Thank you.

I`m afraid I struggle to spend time with other children of my grandchildren`s age - it really brings it home what I am missing. It is less painful to try not to think about what they are like and what they might be doing. This week is half term in our area and seeing children in the shops - especially when they are with their grandparents - is very difficult. This afternoon a friend has asked me to visit and meet her new baby grandson - I will try and be happy for her but seeing her with him will be heart wrenching.

Smileless, this thread has been a real eye-opener for me.

The nature of so many resources on the internet is that it's angled towards people with a particular issue in common e.g. adult children with BLP (borderline personality disorder) parents. That's great in some respects in that it provides support in a situation where you question yourself and feel alone and isolated (surrounded by friends with functional families), but it's dangerous in the sense that people stop seeing the bigger picture e.g. husbands and wives in the same situation, trying to deal with a BLP spouse and the consequences suffered by those around them.

I suppose the same could be levelled at this thread (given that the original post implied that cutting off is always wrong), but there are people on it like you who see that there are GPs, ACs and ILs causing these very different and complicated situations.

Thank you for sharing your situation - it has definitely opened my mind to the idea of BLP/similar beyond the adult child/parent scenario and I'm really grateful for that.

Also Smileless, I really hope your son reaches out and gets some support e.g. therapy to help him deal with his situation with his wife. One of the sites I've used in the past talks about living in 'fear, obligation and guilt'.

My mum doesn't always treat me in the ways I've described - sometimes she's the most loving, affectionate person. If your son experiences the same, I can understand why he would find it difficult to see his wife's 'toxic' behaviour for what it is. It took me a long time and the intervention/support of a psychologist for me to realise that sometimes my mum's behaviour was wrong and damaging. I truly hope your son gets to this point too, and builds the strength to repair his relationship with you.

Could you give me the title of that site FE? TBH I don't think I've ever given enough thought to the difficult home life our ES may well be having to contend with; we've been so hurt and angry by some of the dreadful things he's said and done. Even now if we talk about it, Mr. S. and I end up in tears as the pain is still so raw all be it not as raw as it was to begin with.

I too hope that one day he'll reach out to some one, anyone really who can either give him the help and support he may well need, or point him in the right direction.

Thank you for sharing too. I hope that you'll be able to maintain your relationship with your mum, and from what you've posted, I've no doubt that you will.

"I truly hope your son gets to this point too, and builds the strength to repair his relationship with you". Bless you for your kindness.

MY DIL can be absolutely delightful when she wants to be - I`m sure this is why my son has stayed with her for as long as he has. When she is like this he gets glimmers of hope that she can change and they can live happily together and he feels that he should stay for the sake of the children. However, he is rapidly reaching the point where he feels that the occasional good day does not make up for the many many bad days. My biggest fear is that during one of these good days she will get pregnant and he will be tied to her even longer. Before they had the second child she promised she would start behaving better - in fact things became much worse.

Starlady "As far as ac protecting their kids from gps who are known to spank, etc. does that really mean the ac have to co? Can't they just decide not to let those gps babysit or be alone with their kids? Not everything has to be a total co, imo."

Some AC don't want to be near their abusers, it's too stressful and painful. So they CO their abusers and protect their kids with a CO too.

Each AC defines abuse and toxicity their own way.

Smileless ""Or is it that an outsider (dil) sees dysfunction and refuses to play along"; you always imply that the fault must be the parents. We saw an increasing amount of dysfunction in her and it was us who refused to play along."

This is where you said you refuse to play along (I view as you CO). Whatever you want to call that is fine by me. I prefer to "watch my P and Q" and "walk on eggs", but everyone is different. I childmind too much, I do what I do by my own choice and you did as you wished as well. Neither of us should say we're without choices. You just don't like the choice you made.

Well, its pretty obvious that a parent wouldn't like to make a choice which pushed their sons, daughters, and grandchildren away, I would have thought?

eddiecat78 "When she is like this he gets glimmers of hope that she can change and they can live happily together and he feels that he should stay for the sake of the children. However, he is rapidly reaching the point where he feels that the occasional good day does not make up for the many many bad days." Who tells you these things? Is your son violating the privacy of his marriage and talking to his mum, complaining about his wife to mum? He's surely not putting his wife above all others is he? United front against the world and all, I guess he forgot the vows.

MissAdventure "Well, its pretty obvious that a parent wouldn't like to make a choice which pushed their sons, daughters, and grandchildren away, I would have thought?" Not a choice I would make, but I don't have to be right and I don't mind eggshell walks. There is a lot to be said for myob and going along to get along as far as relationships with AC go, imo.

I would totally agree with the going along to get along, Arabraa.
Many's the time I bite my tongue to keep the peace, I even made a thread about it.
It seems though, that some estranged grandparents aren't even aware of what caused the rift. Maybe an accumulation? Maybe one thing they said? Maybe nothing at all to do with their behaviour; now or in the past? Every single situation is a varied as are the people involved
It seems such a sad situation, to me. A lose/lose one.

Oh dear, here we ago again Araabra; in response to a recent post from Norah I said that I was happy with the choice I'd made, just not happy that I had to make it.

Thankfully, I set no store by your views so it doesn't matter to me if in your view I did cut my son out; I didn't. We didn't have the choice to prevent the estrangement as they were determined to cut us out so yes, I can and do say that we had no choice.

Before you once again refer to one of my posts incorrectly, in my response to Norah when I referred to minding p's and q's and walking on egg shells I went on to say that doing so as well as taking full responsibility for things we hadn't said or done, probably wouldn't have made any difference in the long run anyway.

Your response to eddiecat is an example of your questionable views.

A son confiding in his mother isn't "violating the privacy of his marriage", what an absurd view. We married in church and neither of us made a vow to put one another above all others or promise to never disclose any fears or concerns we may have in the future about our relationship because that would be a violation.

MissAdventure you'd think it would be pretty obvious but obviously not. Just to reiterate, again (sorry) we didn't push our son away, he pushed us.

Araabra "There is a lot to be said for myob for going along to get along as far as relationships with AC go, imo". But you're such a proponent of people detaching themselves from toxic and abusive relationships. Our ES's wife is toxic and emotionally abusive and sadly our son seems to have become that way too.

eddiecat78 "When she is like this he gets glimmers of hope that she can change and they can live happily together and he feels that he should stay for the sake of the children. However, he is rapidly reaching the point where he feels that the occasional good day does not make up for the many many bad days." Who tells you these things? Is your son violating the privacy of his marriage and talking to his mum, complaining about his wife to mum? He's surely not putting his wife above all others is he? United front against the world and all, I guess he forgot the vows.

If you have problems in a relationship, should you not talk about them to a third party? Speaking from experience, if you're trying to maintain a relationship with a 'toxic' person, it's very isolating. You doubt yourself because the toxic behaviour is often inconsistent, and if you raise the issues with the person concerned, my experience is that they often deny/minimise the problem (or stop speaking to you entirely). I nearly lost my marbles trying to keep my issues with my mum to myself! It was only talking about it to others which got me to a place where I could manage my mum's behaviour (to an extent), accept the situation, and avoid triggering issues while still being 'myself' i.e. having my own opinions and parenting in the way my husband and I think best - which is how our relationship has survived and hasn't resulted in estrangement.

Brilliant post FE.

I believe in keeping the disputes between husband and wife private or between them. Not bringing mom into the mix, that is not part of Biblical leave and cleave. If ds "needs" to talk about his wife he should find a counselor. Much of the problem in talking about a spouse is that mum won't forget what was said in anger when the anger ends and the couple is happy again.