ESTRANGEMENT- The silent epidemic! Let's get this out of the cupboard.

Rosie posie whoever u are this is a publicmforum, so I shall post wherever I want to if that's clear enough for you?

I don't own Any thread, and who exactly are you ? Or are you a oldmusermunder different name?

ICanSeeBothSides, I entirely agree with your point re 'us and them' being out of place here, and the fact that toxic behaviours are present in all/any type of relationship. I think you're very brave m, and that your frog pot analogy is spot-on in explaining why people don't take action for years.

Thanks for the kind words, Dorothy, Yogagirl and Smileless (apologies if I've missed any) - to be clear, my mum won't engage in conversation about our relationship or consider counselling either with me or for herself (she often has periods when she feels very 'low'). Even so, counselling on my own did so much for me and indirectly, us both.

This is just an observation about estrangement. I wonder if the the vitriol being expressed by some posters on this thread might just partly explain why those estrangements happened in the first place.

I thought the thread Continued support and fun aspects too of rebuilding lives after estrangement can't believe 4 years and we still here to offer help, friendship and support was to be a positive antidote to the anger on one of the previous such threads but it just seems to have migrated to this thread With a few new posters to keep the anger stirred up.

et again your posts are not making sense celeb. You are fine to drive people away in your own thread, but this is AIBU.

Your post is one not. Asking seems Rosie dog unusual user name ? If U looked the title of this thread is not Aibu

Maybe I have a life and don't have time to read the long posts but,i certainly, don't own any,thread and will like every other member post where I want.

I reiterate my sentence that,hope this is clear enough for you?

Nellie,moser I certainly hope not, we see. To have couple posters arrabra and biibty,spring to mind that wish to post insults full of vitriol totally ignored by gransnet I have had numerous p m s from posters saying they have reported
Let's but ignored.

Heyho I have decided to scale down posting certainly on the troll filled threads they really don't help anyone and I wonder what issues these people have.

Rosieposiem123 not seen that name before ?!, seems weird to come on here being downright rude to me and using my pet dog a user name?

I am not in any way condoning any vitriol found in any posts, but I feel the need to point out celebgran that there is a fair amount coming from both sides here. Both sides of this argument have posters who choose to make inflammatory posts that attack the other side. I don't think I need to name names, we can all read. When a poster resorts to name calling and personal attacks and rhetorical questions that take a comment to its most absurd extremes, they are not gaining any credibility for the ideas they are presenting/defending. It's childish, really. It's the Internet equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?" How about we all stop attacking each other and fuelling the fire.

I will say one thing about Araabra's "going along to get along" policy for keeping the peace. While I agree that it can be taken too far, and not speaking up for yourself will turn you into a doormat, and no one should feel they are "walking on eggshells" ... I think that's different than simply holding your tongue and not giving unsolicited advice. When it comes to unsolicited advice or matters that aren't actually your business, Araabra is right. Earlier on, someone else put it as "least said, soonest mended."

In my experience with my MIL, she wanted to give advice about every aspect of our lives, whether it was her business or not - and then she would get upset and argumentative if we chose not to take her advice. If she had been able to hold her tongue even some of the time, and wait to give advice ONLY if/when asked, we might not have felt the need to CO completely. The whole withholding of my baby incident only happened because I chose to take a medical professional's advice over her opinion, which of course was given unsolicited. She probably wouldn't have felt the need to do that if she had been able to accept that it was MY decision to make, not hers, and that even if I was in the wrong, it's also MY mistake to make. The same goes with all her comments about who was doing the cooking, rather than congratulating my husband for learning a new skill and being happy for him. If she had just kept those thoughts and others like them to herself, we might be in a completely different position.

That's really the critical difference between being considered "annoying/overbearing at times, but reasonable" and full on "toxic BSC." And yes, it applies to both sides. There are times that AC need to back off and let their parents run their own lives, but I think it's a harder adjustment for parents to defer to their AC In that way, because it feels like a role reversal. Really, it's just the natural order of things.

I also happen to agree that marital issues are best kept between those who are actually in the marriage. If a 3rd party needs to be brought in, it should be someone who is there to help both partners work things out themselves, not to advise only one side (and this would certainly not be a good place to go giving unsolicited advice to the other side). Unless you are concerned for your safety - then you may need the support of others outside the marriage, but at that point whether your marriage survives the breach of privacy is the least of your worries.

"ICanSeeBothSides" your story has left me with many different emotions. First and foremost the confirmation of what I have always believed. That no one truly knows what another person is suffering, not even if their situation appears to be the same. Secondly, my heart broke for the years of sheer unhappiness you suffered. Joy to read that you overcame that awful life, and have found happiness, albeit with a residual fear that will never leave you.

However, what I am left with is a deep worry for my own child....and I make no apologies for calling him that, despite his age and the fact that he has led his own very successful life since he left home for university. He is suffering at the hands of someone we all thought would love him, the way he so obviously loved her. And she did, until she had their child. I have been a counsellor for many years - now retired - and have dealt with many similar situations This, though, is my son and my skills feel ineffectual. At the moment, I feel that he would never countenance leaving for two reasons. He lives in one of the most expensive cities in the world, and he knows that his wife would make it very difficult to see his son. I don't know much of what goes on, and that in fact makes things worse. My imagination runs riot. I know he has been subjected to physical violence, simply for attempting to bring his son to see me. I have accepted that I can never have a relationship with my grandson in the hope that that may help. For now, my son comes home on his own to visit, but I think perhaps I may need to ask him not to, at least for a while, in the hope that helps. My son is a kind, gentle soul, but has never put up with bullies, so this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that things are bad. He isn't allowed to take his little one to visit his brother and his children. Little cousins who wouldn't know each other if they passed in the street. I have dealt with an eclectic number of clients over the years, but I am stumped with this. It is unbelievable that one person can tear apart a close, loving family to this extent.

My final thoughts are that we should all respect one another's stories, and not give unwanted, and sometimes downright cruel opinions. As I've said many times, there are as many stories as there are people.

I can't even I must apologise as onlymjustmrewd your post I. Full inhave been v busy last week.

It does sound horrific behaviour from your m imlaw and I can't imagine how awful that must have been.

My daughter accused me of shouting at her when xxxxx was few days old and we had visited and made lunch she shouted for me to move coffee as her dad is clumsy I objected to that insult and retorted. Maybe I was wrong but it was in different league to what U described. . I offered to go, and she said please don't so I ran her a bath and tried to make amends, and apologised when her husband returned,

Eight months later whe she cut us off the incident was mangnified to me shouting uncontrollably with no provocation thank goodness my husband was there or I would have doubted myself,

I think you will find canteven that regular posters are willing and happy to be kind and supportive but we will defend ourselves and each other naturally if we are attacked.

You sound like you gave your m i law every chance to sort things out, we weren't given any warning or asked to not do anything in fact I drove over at daughters request most weeks when s imlaw was working to support her and I cry as I type this because I loved spending time with her and mxxxxx it was such happy time but obviously I was too stupid to see she didn't feel the same.

We would have done anything to resolve the situation and prevent complete cutmoff but we weren't allowed.

Grannyrainbow so sorry for your pain over your son and grandson ?

I am surprised that as a counsellor you had put come across this happening before as I am shocked at how common it seems to be.

In our case my s imlaw for whatever reason is determined to cut our daughter off completely from her entire family, friends, godparents the lot. He even involved police to prevent us writing to her, we were interviews for se ding her a birthday card,
I do think that is quite exceptional but he got his way,

The little baby we adored was overnight justma poignant memory.
To my dying day I will never understand how she could be so cruel,

Maybe your dad i law is the same, is she close to her family?

My s I law is e trembly close to his mum and family they speak daily he and his mum it is a ritual.

However on last time myndear husband spoke to his daughter she had just had 3rd baby and asked s imlaw if her dad could see children, no way now way was shouted response so she shrugged her shoulders at he dad.

That hurt us deeply,

Nelliemoser estrangement is a very traumatic experience regardless of which side you are on. Anger and frustration can understandably be visible in posts; anger because it's happened and frustration because there's nothing that can be done.

These two emotions also become visible in response to rudeness, implications of abuse and a posters' account being questioned to the extent that they either aren't telling the truth at all, or only telling it in part.

We cannot know every detail in every case so we cannot judge whether an EP who says they played no part in the estrangement is not being honest, with others on estrangement threads or indeed with themselves. This is GN a site for grandmothers, women of 'a certain age' who I would have thought would be able to approach this or any other subject, especially such an emotive one, with a degree of empathy toward those who are in such obvious pain.

I have never seen in response to a post on any estrangement thread from an AC who has CO their parents that implies the AC 'must have done something' and cannot be without blame and thank goodness for that.

Recently on this thread and the 'cut out mum' thread on the Relationships forum, there have been several, all aimed at EP's. These have been noted and commented on, not just by EP's but posters not affected by estrangement.

I've been posting on GN for more than 4 years, mainly about estrangement because I am estranged. Sadly, I've grown accustomed to the online abuse of some posters which flares up from time to time. Mr. S. and I have come along way in those 4 years in part because of the care and support I have found on GN.

Nastiness doesn't hurt or upset me. I am comfortable in my own skin, comfortable with the decisions we've made since being CO. TBH, when you've experienced the loss of your child and GC through estrangement, there's not much else that does hurt you.

It does make me angry and frustrated though. We're all different and some of the EP's and GP's who post on GN are hurt and upset to the extent that some never post again. Yes, we all have our opinions. Some of those are formed because of personal experience and some are just opinion.

Whatever those opinions are, it shouldn't be too much to ask that they be given with politeness and without personal attacks.

It's pretty painful to watch estranged parents having to justify each and every sentence they post.
I highly doubt that most or all of them haven't looked closely at every aspect of their behaviour before the estrangement. To have to keep defending everything they say must be gruelling, to say the least. My heart sinks when I know certain people commented, because it's clear to see it is baiting, and doesn't even seem to serve any purpose other than smug references to a supposedly perfect life. Would that we were all so marvellous.

"This is just an observation about estrangement. I wonder if the the vitriol being expressed by some posters on this thread might just partly explain why those estrangements happened in the first place." Quote

This is what Nellie moser posted.

I find this profoundly insulting how someone can post such outrageous comment.,
Implying that we estranged grandparents brought this on ourselves.

I defy any human being to be perfect and ever raise their voice or say anything that they may regret afterwards, it's called being human.
However we all know ourselves if we tried our best to be good parents and I can put my hand on my heart and know this so therefore nothing. Should have brought about a complete cut off.

As myself and smilelss said I believe that when something unkind or thoughtless is posted naturally we will be defensive.

Rosieposiem123 U have only posted once to insult me, find that very strange who are you? Or have u gone to ground.

I looked on lots posts on mumsnet today.

What struck me as rathernsad is the regret and unhappiness coming across from most of the women who had cut their families off.

So very sad and in most cases unnecessary really.

It defitnely seems a 21st century phenomenon as think it was unheard of before the internet age.

We tried to be kind and tolerant as family is really all we have at end of day, despite close bonds with friends, Nothing compared with depth of love I have for my children and close family..

If you are trying to be kind then no one could do this extreme act of cruelty,

It's understandable that those of you who are EGP would think that others don't understand the position you're in when you believe your child is in an abusive situation, and not only can you not fix it, you can't even support them because they've CO. It's true that other people probably won't fully understand. But I know that those of us who have had to resort to CO a relative can understand the need you feel to protect your child and to help them, to not want to see them suffer - because that's exactly what we are acting on. The only difference is that our children can't help themselves, and you have raised your children, so they can (ideally, anyway). Please don't forget that it's the same feeling of fierce love for your child. The reason we all hurt is because we are all mothers who love our children. We have something in common.

Miss adventure bless you? I think when our much loved daughter cut us off I can only speak for myself of course, but I have become much more sensitive and vulnerable, sometimes when I am having a bad day i do wonder if it is all my fault and to certain extent I guess it is, I tried so hard for 28 years to be good mum but it was t good enough for my daughter.

Therefore we would be defensive and yes In Way it is heartbreaking to live rest of your life feeling responsible for so much loss i.e. 3 little Gra daughters in our case

On brighter day i reason what my counsellor said that when I showed her our cut off letter it was full of insults abut me, yet ended saying she would always love me like she wasn't responsible for any of it, i also showed her loving cards and letters before cut off, so I went from someone she loved and couldn't manage without to a violent agressive person too bad to see grandchildren. I wonder what happened to her mind in the in between period?
I guess we may never know

celebgran I think you are misinterpreting what Nelliemoser is saying. You are making assumptions. Her statement was simply that the amount of vitriol could explain reasons for estrangement. It can.

It could mean that an EGP is incapable of seeing things from their ACs perspective and goes on to attack all AC who CO a GP. Even if that isn't what anyone on this board is doing, it is in fact possible for that to happen.

It could also mean that an AC has unreasonable expectations about the role/intentions of GPs, and that they are incapable of seeing things from the GPs perspective, and then have contempt for all GPs who have been CO by an AC. Even if that isn't what anyone on this board is doing, it is in fact possible for that to happen.

Just because someone tries to acknowledge the possibility, doesn't mean they are accusing you of doing it. Even if they are, they are a stranger and they don't know you! Of course they wonder. It's only natural to wonder what the other side of the relationship would say. I wouldn't fault a stranger for wondering if I had done something to bait my MIL, even inadvertently, because there are situations where that might absolutely have been the case. I know I did my best to be fair and honest and open, but I can't expect a bunch of Internet strangers to just take my word for it. So when I tell my story, I know there will be people who think I might have been able to do more, or that I made the wrong decision. I have to accept that as part of human nature. I would hope they would leave it a "wonder" and not assert it as the case. I know in my heart that I did my best.

If you want to participate in a discussion about why estrangement happens, both sides need to be open to the idea that sometimes AC are unjustified and at fault, and GPs have been treated unfairly; sometimes GPs are being unreasonable and are at fault, and AC have been enduring a bad or even abusive situation; sometimes both sides are just not communicating or negotiating well, and both sides are at fault. All of those things happen. None of them are impossible.

To say that if you are trying to be kind then you wouldn't do this cruel thing is extremely unfair. Am I unhappy that we had to CO MIL? Yes. Do I wish it hadn't come to that? Yes. Was it the right decision for us? YES. Were we trying to be kind? Yes. Was it cruel to CO? From her perspective, maybe. From our perspective, being expected to endure her treatment of us and expose our son to it is what is cruel. There is no black and white here. Every situation is different.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from things you've said celebgran, it would seem that your estranged daughter blames you more than her dad, for her need to be NC. You hint at her attempting to create a divide between you. Was she very much a daddies girl, perhaps jealous of his love for you? Would she perhaps communicate with just him initially, without any expectations from either of them. Except of course the possibility of at least some answers. Or maybe you've already pursued that course of action.

And estrangement is not a 21st century phenomenon. It didn't start with the Internet. There is a long history of estrangement. It's in the Bible, A LOT.

What is relatively new is children doing it to their parents openly, rather than the other way around. In the past, when a child, adult or minor, estranged themselves from their parents they generally didn't tell them that's what they were doing. They left home and never came back, were never heard from again.

Parents (at least some anyway) have always felt they had the right to CO their children - disown them, disinherit them, abandon them at a convent or monastery or a doorstep, give them up for adoption. No one slams those parents for denying their children their GPs! People often defend adults who cut off their children because they were a "black sheep" or a "bad egg." Now adult children (at least some anyway) also feel they have that right, and some of them are exercising it. Some of them will be justified, some won't. Just like when parents CO their children.

I've seen a lot of GPs repeat early complaint that 'the other side' believe that GP are the only ones in the wrong and AC are faultless.
Can someone who believes that please C&P because I've repeatedly said it can occur from both sides. Both sides are human and so capabale of blame.
What my bottom line is that regardless of the reason (self preservation or revenge) that is the right of an adult. It is the adults choice to have whomever they want in their lives. And it is the right of any parent to raise their child as they wish as long as they are not causing mental or physical harm.
I'm not saying this isn't agonising. But this thread is more about the practicalities. The why's etc.
So once again. I have absolutely no doubt that there are horrible AC in the world who are 100% responsible for a CO.

Hmmm,
Not sure its always being used to discuss the practicalities. It seems to be full of 'some grandparents this, so that's toxic'
Everyone does know what toxic is, and it can come in any shape, size, sex or whatever. Constantly pointing out that 'some grandparents' are toxic really is old news on these threads. Its like watching a police interrogation at times!

ICantEven

Agreed. Either side can have unreasonable expectations about the role/intentions of the other.

I thought this post was a discussion of the ways estrangement of GPs can happen.

It can be with reason or without, we all know that. Why focus on GPs CO without reason, there is presumably no solution for both sides.

But warning GPs about the toxic nature of behviours such as swearing, screaming, smoking, drinking, etc is worthy of a discussion. Giving unwanted opinions, self invitation, cruel treatment, thinking financial contributions should yield visits, etc are also toxic behaviour in many ACs eyes.

Things some people are used to are no longer acceptable in the name of "family".

Grannyrainbow yes and no no myndsighter and I were extremly close, as were her and her dad but she was t particularly a daddy's girl, yes she was jealous of our relationship I think looking back, shengot annoyed when dh bought me presents and rang while I was at hers.

He wouldn't entertain seeing her without me, And her husband is very anti. Either of us.

Thanks for suggesting that but it's 8 years now and her poor dad has had enough of goinover to have curtains drawn in his face. It is what it is,

Canteven I understand you had awful problems with m imlaw if unread my post I did say it s in a different league.

Maybe you have been unkind uncertainly seem to feel guilty but expect anyone human would,it is massive thing to do. From what u said it seems there wasn't much choice,
Do u have anymcontact at all?

What really upsets us is that 8 years of carefully chosen presents being sent Xmas and birthdays we have never once had courtesy of an acknowledgment

It would probably be best to stop it but we don want little ones to miss out we only send vouchers now,

I think you misinterpreted me canteven I meant it is always best to try and be kind, I accept sometimes things happen your situation was awful and not typical i wouldn't think

ICanSeeBothSides, your post touched me deeply. I had tears in my eyes as I read it. You've been through so much. I'm not CO, but if I were your words would have given me one strange note of hope - the idea that an ed or es might co their family out of love/to protect them. Perhaps some of the eac we read about here will break away from their cruel spouses, eventually, and reach out to their parents.

But GrannyRainbow, how do you know that ds has been the victim of violence for wanting to bring gs to you? Did he tell you this? Is it possible that he and dil came to a mutual decision that he would visit his foo alone? I'm deeply sorry that you don't get to see gs. And if you really think/know ds gets abused, then I'm doubly sorry. I don't get why you're thinking of asking him not to visit at all though. How would that help?

Imo, it's very normal for ac to confide in parents. But I do see where it could cause problems. I think if the parent does more listening than talking it can be ok, however. Also if the parent keeps in mind that all this might change and their ac and cil might patch things up.

I think it's very clear that there are toxic people in all walks of life - mil,dil, cousin, neighbor, etc. And I don't see how people who have been co six, seven, eight years can try to reconcile, so no point, imo, in suggesting what might have gone wrong or what might fix it. I can see where those people would be looking mostly for support as they try to move on. But people who haven't been co as long and those on the verge of co could maybe benefit from what other posters advise. And I mean that for both parents and ac. Just my thoughts.

Starlady verynwise posts.

I still pray for a miracle but Realistically U are right after 8 years our focus is on moving on with the minimum of damage which is hard,

In my heart I accept I am unlikely to see my daughter again but I try not to dwell on the little ones or I can't cope tears coming as I type, why does it still hurt so badly? After so long?