Travellers

How do you know Ana that they " don't work in shops, offices or in the public sector"? - what does a Traveller look like? - how can you tell?

Take it from me, they do have these jobs.

They also have jobs traditional to their culture - buying and selling horses, starting their own businesses etc. A lot of the women are stay-at-home Mums - I do have a concern that this may partly be because the girls' educational opportunities have in the past been limited, but that is changing at now. Not that there is anything wrong with being a stay-at-home Mum as long as it is by choice.

I am no defender of people who break the law, whether Travellers or people from the settled community; and neither are the honest Travellers. They hate it as much as we do.

I'm not doubting you, Mishap, but if they are Travellers who are likely to move at the drop of a hat why would anyone employ them? Of course if they're settled on a permanent site that's a different matter.

Your post was very interesting, Mishap. I hope I made it clear in my OP that I wasn't generalising. Unfortunately those who choose to camp on playing fields and cenotaphs are the one's that people see and remember.

I'm going to use the words responsible and irresponsible to describe the two groups. In order to change the general settled population's perception of all travellers being the same the responsible travellers need to speak out against the actions of the irresponsible travellers. At the moment when anything happens someone comes on the TV to say that it's the councils' fault for not providing campsites which is interpreted by most of us as it's our fault for not paying for more campsites through our council tax. No one wants a campsite building near them due to the actions and behaviours of the irresponsible travellers. We lump them all together because no one in the travelling community ever seems to admit/agree that the irresponsible travellers are in the wrong.

I can't understand why the travelling community allowed Channel 4 to make the Big Fat Gipsy....series. It reinforced what many people thought about the travellers and added more prejudices when we found out how the women and girls were treated and how they dressed.

I don't want to force the travellers to give up their way of life but they can't do it at the expense of the settled communities that the irresponsible travellers disrupt.

If they want to be seen as a distinct community they have to police themselves more effectively and deal with the irresponsible elements in a way that shows the rest of us that they are not what most of us perceive them to be.

Many Travellers are settled now - not by choice, but because their traditional stopping places have been outlawed.

Please do not misunderstand me - there are some rogues out there and I would never defend them, but I have met the others too - many, many of them.

I think the funniest story I was told was by a Traveller antiques dealer who was stopped by the police near Stowe Fair. They pulled him over and searched his van - rifled through everything and insisted on seeing receipts for all the items, some of which were from Sothebys. The police thought they were fakes and rang Sothebys who said "Oh yes, we know Bob, he's one of our best customers!" Egg all over the poor policemen's faces!

Can someone enlighten me, please? What is the difference between Romanies and travellers?

The word Travellers has been coined to cover all Travellers now and that includes Romany Gypsies, who are the descendants of the Roma, who were mainly emanating from eastern Europe I believe. They are now spread throughout the world.

Well they certainly don't earn a living the way I do! mishap your defence of these people does you credit but I don't think I'll ever recover from the break in and theft of irreplaceable items that the police told me was the 'work' of these travellers.

Were they found/convicted? Or was it just suspicion?

I do not condone lawbreaking, but I like to know for sure who has committed a crime before I condemn them. Imagine if a black family moved into a predominantly white area and someone's house was into shortly after - would it be legitimate to assume that the new family were responsible without proof?

I am sorry you were burgled - it is a dreadful experience.

Honestly, believe me - lots of Travellers do what you would recognise as a normal job.

I am defending honest Travellers, because so many of us do not believe they exist.

Most farms around here now have hi-tech security. The lead has been stripped from the church roof and anything that might contain copper, including plumbing from old houses is fair game.

Anyone renting accommodation and using bottled gas is careful to site them away from the road.

Many country pursuits and equestrian supplies shops have gone out of business because the owners can no longer afford to insure against theft.
And I'm sorry to say the police are shit scared vary wary of visiting the permanent sites.

As a District Nurse I visited a local Travelles site, much to my husband's horror (we'd been the victims of Travellers crime when farming-lost £23,000 farming equipment) and after their initial frosty reception I found them welcoming, but with distinct customs I had to learn pdq.

We also had a Rhomany family, complete with traditional caravan and horses, who'd stay at the farm for a few days every year, camping in one of the fields, and they were very friendly and fascinating people.

It is, as everywhere else, the rogues who tarnish it for everyone-and the police told us that many came down from the Midlands, they weren't local, on planned raids, utterly sickening.

Jane10 - if the police had said it was the work of a local man, would you then gave tarred all local men with that particular brush?

Local men are just that. Men who live locally. That's a daft comparison.

Tisn't

There are good and bad in every community, but we need to be sure of guilt before we condemn - visible minorities are always being singled out for blame - it is human nature to defend one's tribe against another.

I am fully aware that some Travellers commit crime (as do settled people). It is very hard for the majority of honest Travellers to feel that it is assumed that they are all bad.

I have met Travellers who have made lots of money and started charities with their earnings; women Travellers who have got together to help local schools to understand their culture so that their children can settle into school and get the education they missed out on themselves - I could go on, but won't! The problem of course is that most people don't met these Travellers - or if they do, they have no idea that they are Travellers. The just see the bad ones - which is a great shame.

Places like Stowe and Appleby where the horse fairs take place have now, in the main, welcomed the influx of Travellers - it puts them on the map, boosts local income etc. Of course, as when any huge crown get together in one place for several days, there will be problems - as there are at music festivals.

I suppose that what I am saying is that they really are not that different from us - they have different customs for sure, but so do Muslims, Jews etc.

Mishap- I've appreciated your well informed posts on this thread.

As I have mentioned on here before. I lived in an ex Eastern Block country for 5 years. I have seen the best and the worst of Romany Gypsy.

I too have seen the best and worst petra - but there is a bit of a problem in that in general people are not aware that there is a best to see!

Thank you GT.

hi---new here and first post so please be gentle!
I come from an English Romany family. Mr grandparents were the last of my immediate family to travel--my grandad was gassed in WW1 and became too ill to move around anymore so my nan decided that the family should stay put. And that was that. We did live in a house that backed onto a travellers site (I suspect that the council couldn't get anyone else to live there!) and so I saw a lot of my cousins. Much of my extended family moved about in the summer and came back to the site in the winter.

I can see so much of what mishap writes in my own family. We all "look" romany--dark hair and eyes etc and if you had seen the older women in my family you have been in no doubt where we came from. They all wore the cliche earings and clothes and I even had an aunt that sold lucky heather. In the holidays I would sometimes stay with them and I loved it---for the most part. Other times--not so much. But that was because of the way we were treated.

From my immediate family (siblings and cousins), there are, among other jobs 3 nurses, 1 social worker and 4 teachers. I say this only to show that we are honest, do not steal and can pass all sorts of police checks. Our honesty didn't start, as if by magic, from the day we stopped travelling and became like everybody else. We were always honest. And always clean. You have no idea what clean means until you have seen an old romany woman cleaning. But it is REALLY difficult to stay clean and tidy when you have no access to clean water, all the stopping places have been closed and there are no sites to go to.

Its odd really--much is made about respecting others traditions but home-grown traditions are stamped out. My family lived in the same village for years but some of the pubs and the local shop refused to serve us. I passed the 11+ and went to grammar school and remember trying to explain to a school friend why I couldn't go into my local shop. I had never done anything, nor had my family or any of our friends, but at some point the shop and pub had been robbed. Did travellers do it? maybe--maybe not--but the locals still used the shop and we couldn't.

None of us travel any more. It is far too difficult to find anywhere to stop that is suitable. And, tbh, I don't really think of myself as a traveller anymore. The old customs are really dying, the language (English romany) all but lost and my children see it as quaint family history. I have not even thought about it for years until I saw this thread. And its turned into a bit of an essay! But as mishap has said, all people are human, we all do things wrong and we all do some things well. But Travellers are stereotyped in a way that most people would never do for another distinct group.

Great post and a very interesting read with good points raised ohdear. Welcome, by the way .

Brilliant ohdear - and put much more eloquently than I am able! Thank you for your post - and welcome!

This is what I have been trying to get across - the word stereotyped says it all.

What an interesting post, ohdear and a warm welcome from me, too. It's good to see the positive comments made about travellers and the culture some are gradually leaving behind because of prejudice and bureaucracy. I used to live near a double travellers' council site in north Manchester and we didn't hear a peep from anyone. The children went to our local schools and would occasionally be absent for large family events but no repercussions. Having worked with offenders, I only came across one traveller who assaulted a relative and no parents prosecuted for not sending their kids to school (but quite a few from mainstream society). A colleague was a member of an Irish travelling family and she introduced us to lots of cultural information, including encouraging me to visit the Appleby fair, which was like being on a film set. Fascinating!

It's occurred to me that I haven't seen any women selling lucky heather door to door for years, but would see them every time the fairground visited our park at one time.

But of course the paradox is that Travellers only become socially acceptable by adopting "our" ways and abandoning their own culture. Is this OK I wonder?

Thankyou all for the welcome. I came on here because I am having mixed feelings about being a grandmother and find myself talking about my childhood! I think I am going to love this site!

Anyway--as mishap has said, families like mine only became acceptable because we no longer lived a certain lifestyle. And mishap is quite correct. But being a traveller--English Romany like us, or any of the other, quite distinct groups--is more than just a question of birth. I no longer live like my grandmother, where as, most people, I would suspect, live a life that has just expanded from the one thier grandparents led. I would not call myself a traveller any more, even tho thats my family background.

My nan spoke a different language, lived by other rules and held family above all else. I think a big difference is an attitude towards education. My older relatives were illiterate. They had nothing against education, its just that in a language that had no need of writing it just wasn't important. They had fantastic memories. Phone numbers, addresses, histories, work details--all these things were known by heart. Saturday nights were full of family stories and I learnt about great great grand parents and the fights they had, about disasters (when a cart sank in a river and killed 20 people, sometime in 1880) and, sometimes, when the grown ups forgot we were there, about the bad things they had done. I am sad that I can't do that for my grandchildren.

I remember one night when my nans neighbour came to call. Her husband used to beat her and that day he had beaten thier son. The police were not interested ina domestic so my nan dealt with him. Us kids were sent out, but I remember all my male relatives coming over and later that night paid him a visit. He still lived there but they never had bruises again. Looking back, it was not the way to deal with it---but children were "off limits" to any sort of violence. Even my neighbours children, who were not travellers had the same rights. I was never smacked--don't think ANY child in my family has ever been smacked and I remember being very shocked when I saw a child being slapped outside my school.

Anyway--I am really grateful to have this opportunity to remember all this. On mishaps, last point, that we only became acceptable because we changed---you are quite right. But now we have changed there is no way I would go back. The world is a different place.

Jane10, what sentence did those who stole from you receive ?

A good friend is an Accountant and has a couple of Irish travellers as clients, they work hard all over Europe, are particular about paying all taxes etc, and are the best clients he has at paying his bills. he would be happy to have just travellers as clients. he also says they are very friendly and hospitable.