VERY lively small boy.

Quite probably a autism problem or similar, but I agree it was the mother's responsibility to deal with it, iby taking him out of the toilets (and the store if necessary). It is unrealistic to suggest that children should not be put in that position, mothers do need to go into shops, including M&S, and some actually prefer to see what is available rather than buying on line and having to return things if they are unsuitable

Penstemmon - I wasn't for one minute suggesting that ASD/ADHD doesn't exist, only that excuses seem to be being made by many that this child was behaving so abominably as he probably had behavioural problems. I know some do, but modern methods can help them learn to cope with different situations and what they can and can't do. A friend's child has learnt how to control his destructive temper outbursts and another wears ear plugs and uses breathing techniques to cope with noisy places which otherwise would send him frantic.

If this child did have a problem surely his mum should have said and apologised to the poor lady from the loo. I know it must be difficult to have to keep explaining, but it's quite difficult to be on the receiving end of bad behaviour. Somewhere along the line in a child's upbringing it has to learn what is socially acceptable otherwise he'll grow into an uncontrollable yob.

Youngest DGS is just out of nappies and fascinated by bodily functions. Last week, mum was washing her hands in M&S cloakroom when an older lady came out of one of the loos to be asked by DGS whether she had had a wee or a poo! Not very amused apparently ?

radicalnan there is more to life than supermarket shopping. DS and DIL regularly shop online and when 'trying things on' I look after DGS. BUT we all try to familiarise him with the so-called normal world within the limitations of his capabilities. As I said on another thread I do take him to a supermarket occasionally. We have our own routine whereby I lift him into a trolley, push him round while getting a few bits (certainly not a weekly shop), he unloads the items onto the belt, I pay then lift him out again in the trolley park. We then go to a certain bus stop and come home. No tantrums, no running around, no pulling stuff off shelves and no overloads leading to meltdowns.

What happened last week was unavoidable. We went to an inner city farm, where he has been several times with me and with his school. He is familiar with the place and the animals, and we go to the farm shop to buy fresh eggs from the chickens he's just been feeding. However, this time (for the first time) the shop was closed ... His routine had been changed and it was outside his comprehension.

Next time we will build in the possibility of the shop being shut and what we can do instead.

Though M&S has always caused all the children I know to exhibit their worst possible behaviour! Possibly because women in general seem to go into a trance like state and become unaware of quite how bored their child had become.

Whatever the reason for the little boy's behaviour, I'm guessing the Mum was trying the 'ignore bad behaviour tactic'. How brave of her!

Not all autistic children are badly behaved and not all badly behaved children are autistic.

Those posters who say the issue was the mother's lack of response to the situation are spot on. Parents must take responsibility for their children's behaviour up to a certain point. That means trying to avoid situations that children cannot cope with, having strategies for dealing with difficult behaviour and, in the case of a specific issue, simply explaining to others briefly. When GS1 'kicked off' my DD would quietly explain, then deal with the behaviour. That elicited sympathy and understanding rather than condemnation,

It isn't easy, but ignoring the child and the effects on others isn't IMO an option.

I was a smug young mum. My kids behaved when they were out and at school and almost always at home. I thought I knew it all. And then we adopted and I very quickly learned that I didn't. No I wouldn't have let him slam doors and alarm people. He would have been picked up and carried screaming through the shop, down the escalator and out of the shop, shopping abandoned. And no, I didn't have anyone I could leave him with as my husband couldn't cope. It wasn't the child's fault and it wasn't mine but the mutterings of "insufferable child" and accusations, "I suppose he's been spoiled, being the youngest" stung and in memory still sting.

My grand daughter is disabled, with a rare thing (WHS) and has no immune system. We manage perfectly well shopping on line and I honestly think that parents are responsible for subjecting their kids to miserable experiences causing them and others distress.

You do not need a 'team of helpers' you just have to get on with sorting out, what it is your own child can tolerate by way of external stimulations and if that child can't cope, then shop on line and spare everyone the hassle.

My daughter has 2 other children to cope with and is studying p/t, she takes appropriate steps to ensure the comfort and safety of her child, by putting her first and not tking her to places where she can't cope.

I step in and have the children if she wants to go and do 'trying things on', but when I see all the poor kids dragged around supermarkets, while they go into frenzy or melt down and their parent wanders about (on the phone more likely than not) taking no responsibility for the havoc caused, I could weep.

There really is nothing you can buy, that is more important than the comfort and well being of your child and the internet has made everything else so simple. Shops are open all hours now and 7 days a week, children susceptible to sensory overload need not be taken there, it cant be good for them.

Just because children may have special needs doesn't mean that bad behaviour has to be accepted. I have worked with children like this for 40 years. Currently, I work in a nursery,a certain child runs rings round the other staff as they bark out their 'one word' instructions as indicated by the portage worker, I speak to him normal sentences and he does things first time.

Must admit The mum had some patience I would have picked him up and gave him a good talking too. Think on reflection he may have been autistic you just don't know. I never slapped my children and I think it's the wrong thing to do to any child.
Having worked as a TA for 30 yrs I have seen the good and bad of children.
Sometimes it's just the parents who can't be bothered to teach their children about behaviour.

Swanny

NfkDumpling Nobody has suggested it was 'normal' behaviour..although for a small child it might be.. It was certainly not socially acceptable!

Your comment suggests you do not really believe that children have ASD/ADHD? I did suggest in my post that he may be an unfortunate child who has been poorly parented.

I had an experience during half-term last week with my DGS, who has an ASD. Major meltdown, in public, very busy road - plenty of people stared but NO-ONE asked if he was ok or offered help to either of us. I could have been abducting him for all any of them knew as he was screaming, spitting, hitting and kicking me

I mean the swapping of old shoes for new in M&S.!

This happens a lot in M&S particularly with shoes.

So, are we to assume that all badly behaved children have autism or ADHD or some other set of initials and accept it as normal behaviour?

Perhaps if it happens again (and I shall store it away for possible use in the future) it would be best to ask the cubical victim if they are ok, and commiserate with them. After all it must have been really quite scary for her.

Because, radicalnan, not everyone is fortunate enough to have a team of helpers. Especially people with children who are challenging to look after. Or those helpers might have already helped look after him while she did other important things.

Most kids hate shopping. Why bother to drag them to the shops if they have a condition that makes them act up because it is due to them being stressed out. You can by everything online now and I think if a child is so distressed by being in retail environments, all the lighting, muzak and stuff everywhere, why not spare them the distress?

If she has to cope with his behavioural condition, whatever it is, day in day out, I kind of can't blame her for feeling she has the right to at least use the toilet and wash her hands properly before yet again dealing with a meltdown. And she can't leave him at home (much as she may have preferred to) if she doesn't have enough offers of help. When a child appears to be too much for a mother to handle we all have to ask ourselves whether we do enough to help in a constructive way. But to the OP I don't blame you for feeling annoyed, it's a very natural response to a behavioural challenge!

As some others have said, the child may well have had some form of autism and it is only too easy to judge this as bad behaviour. Quite often intervening can make this type of behaviour worse. Yes, the Mum should have apologised to the lady coming out the cubicle but (and I have been in this situation myself) sometimes you get so stressed and are totally mortified and just want to be swallowed up into the ground.... please don't judge.

Sounds like autistic behaviour. My friend's grandson behaved really badly when she took him to a shopping mall and she had to explain to a very disapproving stranger. It gets worse as they get bigger as it appears they are very very incontrollable to other people. If you read The Curious Incident of the Dog in the night its a real insight into the autistic mind.

I wasn't sure if the lady stripping off to her knickers in M&S had a problem (it seemed very strange behaviour in public) but as she seemed quite purposeful I left her to it.

I have just thought that she could, of course, have walked out with a new pair of trousers on and left her old ones behind

Perhaps the child had severe autism - you should not judge unless you know the family.

Whilst we're discussing behaviour in M&S - I was in a large M&S store today and saw a woman (not young) in a corner stripping off her trousers and trying on trousers from the rack. It was impossible not to glance as she stripped off to her rather large beige knickers
The changing rooms were not that far away!

That's right M0nica

What happens when he is older, stronger and still behaving like that and mother is still turning a blind eye?

Ignore is fine if the child is having a tantrum but not causing distress or harm to anyone else.