VERY lively small boy.

There have always been over lively and over active children around, whatever the cause. My experience is that when it is clear that such a child is in the care of an adult, who is making an attempt to contain any problems in an appropriate way, then I admire and have sympathy with them. It is when a child is allowed to run wild while the appropriate adult does nothing so that you are constantly on guard against the child doing something that really will be dangerous, damaging or hurt or upset other people, that it disturbs one.

As I said we have an uncontrolled child who comes to our church. His parents just let him run and shout a much as he likes during the service and even when he was trying to hit another child, they did nothing to restrain him. The other child's parents were busy protecting their child from him and, as I was sitting nearby, I was on the point of intervening when the offending child lost interest and ran off elsewhere.

All the excuses in the world do not justify parental inaction in circumstances like that, nor in the circumstances described by the OP.

calm parenting is good when it does not cause distress to other people such as the woman in the cubicle.

That wasn't calm parenting though - it was completely ignoring a child's bad and quite frightening behaviour which happened for whatever reason and the mother should have stopped sorting her shopping and removed him from that situation. And apologised to the woman in the cubicle.

A good slap for the mother !! Like that would help anyone.
I haven't seen anyone saying the behaviour of mother or child was praiseworthy. The reason more children have diagnoses is because more is known about child development. The reason less children are slapped or beaten is because most people get a grip when they feel angry. Part of good parenting is teaching children how to behave and how to manage their feelings.
We probably see more 'difficult' children in our midst because so few are now sent to institutions. Fifty even forty ago it was fairly common to send 'naughty boys' away to boarding schools. my experience was that the majority of these children had been abused or neglected and the 'easy' solution was to send them to boarding school in term time

But if I were in the loo in M&S and my door was being hammered I would be worried at what I would be greeted with as I left my cubicle . If I heard a mother saying stop that at once you'll upset the lady in there I would have realised that there was a feral child. If she had said nothing what was I to expect? Come back toilet attendants.

Momof3 - my firstborn almost died at birth and it was touch and go for the first few days.Anoxia. They told me he could die or be severely brain damaged.
His behaviour was and is hyper,late to start reading etc and he had loads of accidents - would have been diagnosed ADHD now. But TG has learned to curb his overactivity - he's 54 now, married with a family and a good job.
For the OP - maybe the Mum had been advised to be calm, but it wasn't working! As others have said, he wasn't mature enough to be put in that kind of situation.
As to speaking to the mother, this kind of thing has been discussed on here before, and the general consensus is "best not to mix in - often makes things worse."

Momof3 I don't think any of us are intending to insult you, your child or anyone with behavioural problems (I don't know the present correct termination), but some sympathy should be given to those on the receiving end. The poor lady on the loo having her door battered could have been quite frightened and worried about what was to happen to her when she opened the door. I've been cannoned into by a runaway rampaging child - and it hurts! If you're getting on a bit and unsteady on your pins an unpredictable and uncontrolled child in a confined space is quite disturbing. The fact is that that particular parent was doing nothing to control her offspring or explain or apologise for his behaviour. It wasn't the child's fault, but the parent.

Totally unacceptable behaviour by parent and child, which I suppose makes ones take the view that maybe the child is not quite so much blame. Persoanlly, I would have loved to to just give the mother a bloody good slap, sorry but that's how I feel.

Do not be so insulting my son has ADHD and is certainly not highly strung. He is highly aware of right and wrong and is devastated when he is wrong.

1. There are different types my son has the inattentive type and poor executive function, which essentially means he is a space cadet and can not organise him self, probably caused by being a very sick (nearly died) neonate. Nothing to do with the food he eats.

2. There are more children being diagnosed now because paediatric medicine is better, years ago children were missed and just written off as being slow or not academic.

3. Children with ADHD have amazing brains and are able to do things neurotypical children can only dream of. For example my son is an amazing climber (one of the best for his age in the country we live). They are able to hyperfocus for example Michael Phelps (many times Olympic swimmer champion).

4. The downside is due to a poor working memory they find retaining facts very difficult. Handwriting can be physically and mentally exhausting.

5. You probably won't find many ADHD kids being wild because their parents are conscious of their limitations. Also they will be aware of other people's small minded bigoted opinions.

6. ADHD Children tend to have low self esteem because school can be very difficult.

7. Most of the children I know who are a pest are neurotypical

Please do not judge others people's lives that you do not know

Several posters have mentioned M&S being a difficult shop for children. However, it maybe that kids are taken there as it is one of the few places to have toilets. I shop in M&S anyway but it's the only place in my local shopping centre with toilets. When my children were small, my youngest found shopping centres generally difficult and Woolworths the worst shop. Woolworths had toys and sweets and being denied all those goodies he could see was difficult!

If this child had a problem perhaps M&S was not the best place for his mum to take him and actually I don't think M&S is a suitable place for any small children. He was showing how much he hated it and his mum still wasn't listening. There are so many other things she could have been doing with him, I actually feel a bit sorry for her. Instead of chasing around in a park or on a beach she chose to drag him around M&S, she could have been playing a game and laughing with him somewhere more suitable.
I actually find the way little girls are taken around shopping centres very worrying. They are much less bother and shadow their mums, but they are being indoctrinated into a consumer society. They would be better outside skipping and climbing trees.

I was eldest of 5 and I know that when we were all out with my mum we all had to behave - we just did as we were told! And from memory most families were the same - of course you had the odd high spirited child but nothing like what you witnessed! I know I would not have allowed it either. However I do wonder at times is it the food the children now eat or something else - as so many children these days are being diagnosed with ADHD or some other highly strung diagnosis? It is worrying.

I do not shop in M&S ever!

Well said Momof3

ADD/ADHD/autism are problem within the brain, children don't just become ADHD due to over stimulation.

Aside from that there is no need to let children to run riot that won't do anyone any favours.

Maybe though the mom was tired and didn't have anyone to leave her child with, not everyone has extended family or willing friends to help.

Maybe mom had been doing online shopping but was actually lonely and desparetly wanted/needed to get out the house.

Maybe people just shouldn't judge and make snap judgements on a snapshot of this families life.

There IS something about M&S stores that I find oppressive. I think they pack in too many items onto a small floor area.

So.....I shop online from M&S. ??

'What's Going to Happen to the Children When There Aren't Any More Grown-Ups?' - brilliant Noel Coward song which imho sums up quite a bit. So many parents behaving like adolescents with their little tecky-gadgets. And the 'progressive' parents ('We opted for called him Offspring till he was 5 so he wouldn't be traumatized by having a name imposed on him'). God help these poor young souls - it's a form of child abuse, really.

Not to mention the opposite side of the coin, parents terrorizing their children about A-levels and degrees when they're much too young for that sort of pressure.

I don't remember who mentioned sleep deprivation in children, but it's very true and so unhealthy.

Sometimes I try to imagine what it must be like to be young today and it breaks my heart. I know it's not all bad, I don't want to be depressing, but the sensory overload nearly drives me round the twist. I don't see how children bear it. Then the chemicals in food, air, and water. It's a miracle that more of them don't grow up ADD or autistic.

You're definitely not being unreasonable. Children deserve better.

On the surface it looks as if the adult i/c the child was not doing a very good job. But when you are not sure of the facts it is unwise to become smug and say , "In my day...."

With you there costalminder

I don't think parents (or grandparents) should have to explain their child''s behaviour to random strangers. Sometimes in similar situations I'll speak to the child not to tell them off but as a distraction 'Wow those doors make a noise!' It can work

It could just be that the mother had reached a point where she couldn't face explaining everything again. Knowing how you should be handling a situation doesn't mean that it doesn't all get too much.

When I worked as a first aider in a Department store, I was often shocked at the lack of control over children..
which consequently lead to accidents...and my being called to their aid...playing on escalators....climbing on display plinths, running around recklessly, please or offend...good behaviour starts with responsible peranting.

young children, whatever their circumstances, learn from the adults that care for them.
good manners and respect begin at home. enough said.

I am afraid that this is a prime example of many parents in this day and age, you see it everywhere you go, no boundaries whatsoever. Many children do what they want, when they want at a very young age,and totally rule the roost. Then when they become teenagers, parents wonder why they have no control or respect. I see this on a daily basis in a Senior School where I work and it makes me very sad to see it, the very basic manners and respect are missing.

I am all too well aware that a few children have challenging behaviours because of medical conditions. I empathise with their parents and know how difficult it can be.

However, twenty or thirty years ago I never remember being troubled by children's general behaviours in shops, buses or restaurants. Now it is a daily occurrence. Something has definitely changed and I think it is perhaps a combination of more "hands off" parenting in association with an awful lot of children being sleep deprived.

There is no way of knowing whether the child is just badly behaved or suffering from something like ADHD, but to my mind the mother's manners are appalling!

Whether or not her son is just naughty, she could and should have offered the other users of the ladies' room an apology.

I agree it is usually best to ignore two-year old tantrums, but that wasn't the issue here, was it?

And oh, yes, all churchgoers know that one child who is allowed to distract both children and adults from their devotions, while other children of similar age are behaving beautifully. Once again, it's the parents who are at fault.