To expect cyclists to keep their hands on the handlebars?

What I can't understand is when there are perfectly good cycle lanes provided so many cyclists choose not to use them.

Quite often cycle lanes are not perfectly good. Quite often their surfaces are really appalling compared to the road.
I do agree though that when they are perfectly good it's weird when you see cyclists not using them.
There are other considerations though. For instance, sometimes they are very badly designed, presumably by non-cyclists, and so anyone cycling on them would have to be braking every half minute or so for house drives and so forth. There were some like this in Oxford where bikes were supposed to give way to everything and everybody. That really isn't practical so cyclists didn't use them or used them but 'technically' incorrectly (though in a perfectly reasonable way in actual fact). They were really no use as cycleways.

I think one has to have cycled every day for a good length of time to understand the difficulties cyclists have because they are, for the most part, just add-ons to all the rest of the the traffic including pedestrians. Planners just didn't think about cycling as a mode of transport—obviously or there wouldnt, have been such ridiculous cycle paths in a place like Oxford! I think that attitude is improving now.

I can see that your sister's death has affected your view of cycling safety, monica, as of course it would. I'm sorry it happened. Knowledge of this sad event was not available to me when I first posted so I could not know that even mild humour was not appropriate from your point of view.

You're wasting your time Baggs. I spent hours drafting long, well-researched, informed posts on a thread a couple of years ago, but it's all gone in one ear and out the other. The usual suspects are all back with the same anti cycling rants that I refuted before. I suggested they go and read Cyclecraft, but you can bet not one of them has done.

The Cycle lanes to which I am referring are really very good and very well maintained too. We are on a popular tourist route from the North Sea Ferry so quite popular with cyclists from Germany, Holland etc. it is the day to day commuting cyclists who seem to have an aversion to them preferring to use the narrow main carriage ways, jump the lights and criss cross etc. we had a very bad fatal accident recently where a cyclist using the main carriage way ran straight over the road infront of the main port entrance and was literally crushed by a truck. Had he have been on the dedicated cycle lane this could not have happened. The town had a huge campaign but it hasn't made a tiny bit of difference. They are a menace to other road users and pedestrians too. I just can't understand why they don't use the lanes provided for their safety it's as though they are sticking two fingers up to other road users.

I'm not sure I understand cyclists avoiding dedicated, good quality cycle lanes either, gillybob, but I have a feeling it may be to do with the cycle track markings (the ones equivalent to road markings); I have found that most of them make bikes give way where other road traffic does not have to give way. This is what I meant in previous comments: cyclists on cycle lanes are often subjected to road rules that don't apply to them if they are on the road. Naturally, they find this annoying, as you would if you commuted by bike.

Please qualify your statement about cyclists being a menace with the word "some", gillybob. It is true, of course, but menaces occur in all circumstances and I do not think it is fair to portray cyclists as a menace species, flattering though it is to distinguish them as so noticeable.

As I said up thread, my own suspicion is that the proportion of bad cyclists is equal to the proportion of bad drivers and, I would add, bad pedestrians.

Yeah, I think you're right, crun. Maybe I should just start an anti-bikist campaign? Can you think of a better name for it?

I also live in hope, crun, that a number of gransnet lurkers read what we're writing and get the point where angry bikists don't (because they refuse to, and are full of prejudice, not because they can't).

Here's a challenge to the bikists: cycle five miles to work and back in the rush hour anywhere you like every day for a year (when I was doing it it was the quickest way and I never cycled at more than about ten miles an hour (because I can't!)). I think you might feel differently then.

I think I already did say it was the day to day commuting cyclists that are the problem Baggs
But happy to reiterate this again for clarity. I think the main road may be a slightly faster route (especially if you avoid lights, criss cross the traffic etc) whereas the safe, new extra wide cycle routes take a very slighly slower route. I can totally understand the problem for any cyclist where they are forced to use main roads etc. but that is absolutely not the case in and around our town. I'm not sure what can be done about it as I said earlier a police safety campaign has made no difference.

Actually just spoke to DH who contradicts me. He says that the cycle routes should be much quicker as no need to dismount and no traffic lights pedestrian crossings or give way signs either.

Yes, but you mean that it is SOME OF the day to day commuting cyclists, gbob. Most cyclists to not behave badly as road users. Using an all inclusive term for them is as bad as saying all Muslims are bad because some of them are jihadist criminals. It smacks of intolerant and unreasonable prejudice, or maybe just bad temper, but anyway, it's not acceptable.

BTW, just as an aside: surely I'm not the only Gransnet cyclist (past cyclist) who ever rode certain stretches (on cycle paths, not roads with cars on) without my hands on the handlebars? Come on, other cyclists, own up!

And it is fun, isn't it?

If you have cycle paths in your area that have no traffic lights and no give way signs for pedestrians and side roads and house driveways, then you are very lucky, gbob. I have yet to come across one like that. Well done your local council if they have provided such, but I've a feeling that if you cycled along them you'd find that bikes are subjected to more road rules than other road traffic. Please investigate and tell me I'm wrong and I will celebrate!

Crun I have never made anti-cycling rants. I used to cycle to and from work myself, although I now can no longer cycle.

I would not defend any driver driving stupidly and dangerously around cyclists - and I have seen enough of them, but cyclists are not all saints who always obey the highway code. I used to do my cycling in a university town and always made sure both I and my bike were well lit and visible once the light began to fade, but living in a student area there. Driving at night I was constantly on the look out for students cycling without lights or reflectors, slipping in and out of patches of shade and light, shooting across roads without warning.

The idiot cyclist cycling at speed and texting is another such. However given his age, probably, 50s, and the area I live in, at weekends he probably gets into his very large 4 x 4 and drives with the same scant regard for the safety of himself, his family or other road users.

I am going to take extra special notice on my way home from work later Baggs . Trying to retrace the route in my imagination, I might miss something.

I wish I could cycle along our amazing coastline with my DGC (again fantastic cycle paths) but my legs give way after only a short time. DH suggested in an electric bike which means I could cycle the straight bits and use the power for harder bits. But the cost.... wow. Just a tiny bit out of my league.

There are, of course, bad cyclists and bad drivers and each will always say they are not. I still think cycling without your hands on the handlebars is dangerous. You may be on what you consider a safe cycle path but if your front wheel hit a stone you would end up over the handlebars and possibly seriously hurt. If you can't hold the handlebars because of pain in your wrists, get off the bike and either wait until the pain subsides or if possible push the bike.

Baggs if you want to see cycle tracks where the cyclist rules then come to Oxfordshire. I have yet to see a cycle path that does not give precedence to the cyclists, everywhere except at road junctions. Pedestrians, disability buggies, cars coming off drives. The cyclist is monarch of all.

Personally I have never ever ridden without my hands on the handle bars. Not because I am law abiding but because I have always had very poor balance.

I cycled to work for some years, because it was the easiest way to get to work in a frequently grid-locked town. But I cannot say I enjoyed it, I was concentrating too hard on keeping upright. When a hip problem meant I had to give up cycling, it was with relief.

I recently drove behind a cyclist, who clearly had the same problems I had. It was terrifying. No wonder cars always gave me such a very wide birth when they went past me. I permanently looked as if I could fall off any moment.

That's interesting, mon, because the worst cycle paths, the ones where bikes had to give way at every garden entrance (whereas other road traffic and pedestrians don't have to) is also in Oxfordshire, north Oxford to be precise along the Banbury Road. It may have been changed by now (I hope so!); I haven't been there for over a decade.

One can see why cyclists would ignore such discrimination if the rode on the cycle path, or avoid it by cycling on the road.

they

On the cycle paths near us, where they run out and force the cyclist onto the road, the cyclist has to give way. If they just cycle on the road and avoid the cycle path they obviously don't have to give way because they're already on the road. This is the sort of thing that speedy cyclists don't like. It never bothered me not least because I wasn't speedy, but if I hadn't wanted my flow to be interrupted I'd have avoided the cycle path in the first place and then I'd have been subject to the same road rules as all the other traffic.

That, I think, is the reason why some cyclists (actually most of them round here) don't use the cycle paths.

I have nothing against cyclists - there are members of my family who are enthusiastic cyclists and have set off up huge hills in France and had a wonderful time.

But there truly is a problem with cars/buses/lorries sharing the same space as cyclists, as they are so very vulnerable, and also travel at speeds that are not the norm for the road. This means that the issue of overtaking arises. This should not be a problem - we have dozens of slow farm vehicles on the move here and overtaking them is seldom a problem, because they have respect for other road users and pull in at every opportunity to allow others to pass.

I can only speak as I find, and there is a problem here with cyclists not showing respect for other road users, not slipping into an entry momentarily to let tailback of cars past, not riding safely in single file where this is the right thing to do, weaving about the road in twos and threes and scaring the life out of other road users. I have never ever seem a cyclist take steps to make it possible for a tailback to get by, so the road can be unclogged - never.

This is clearly most unfortunate, but it is what happens. I always hang back as I am worried about causing harm to the cyclists, however unwise their behaviour; but folk behind me get understandably irritated and some very dangerous overtaking takes place.

I am always puzzled that the farm vehicles drivers can understand the need to show courtesy to other road users but not the cyclists.

I am sure that you Baggs would not behave in this manner, but sadly that is what happens round here. It is a big problem.

I do not know what the answer is, but the vulnerability of cyclists is a massive problem round here.

Cyclists don't have motors. They move by muscle power. Having to pull over to let other vehicles pass would be unfair on them because they lose their rhythm.

I'm being devil's advocate saying that, but it's the truth nonetheless and not something I suppose tailback drivers have ever considered. This is why I suggest people do a good deal of cycling for a year before complaining.

Once when I was visiting DD2 in Wales and we wereout walking, there was a part where we had to walk on a country road that hefty lorries came along. There was no footpath. Each time I heard a large vehicle behind me, I stepped in as close to the wall at the side as I could. DD said: "Don't do that; we have as much right to be here as they do".
She had a point.

Same applies to cyclists who are "in the way". It's their road too, and they have as much right (and more because of the effort thing above) to use the road as any other vehicles.

I"m not excusing bad behaviour, just arguing for more patience, more tolerance, and more imagination from motorised road users. Most cyclists are also drivers so they have the same 'irritations' when they are not cycling to put up with as the rest of us.

Think of them in the same light as sheep or cows being herded. Those aren't expected to get out of the way when they're on the road. Other vehicles, including bikes, just have to wait.

I probably would move aside sometimes, btw, but I didn't cycle like the enthusiasts do nowadays where they are often training for races and so forth.