To hav3 had enough of Harvey Weinstein on the radio

Err. I thought you put out a diktat that we may not go off topic trisher! This thread is about sexual harassment and worse not the harassment you have now decided to bring in in order to make sense of what you have been saying.

If only it were so simple SueDonim having worked in environments where mothers felt it was their duty to make sure their sons were brought up to be tough and fight their corner it isn't a culture you or any other campaigner is going to change in a hurry (or probably at all) The fact is that there are violent people in society and adapting behaviour to deal with that is a necessary part of survival for both sexes
The data shows that whereas women are more likely to suffer domestic abuse men are more likely to suffer from street violence and homicide is almost double for men
www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/feb/07/crime-statistics-england-wales-violent-sexual-offences#data

The thin line is that between what can be classed harassment and what can't. Is it harassment if anyone puts their arm around you? although I dislike physical contact unless it is someone I am close to I wouldn't class it as such, and I have had women I know behave like this as well as men. They soon realise I don't find it acceptable. But harassment it isn't.

Comparing children sexually abused with a woman who has an affair with a man after he allegedly assaulted her , accepted gifts and met his mother ,To wipe out the memory of the assault is not acceptable surely

Those children wanted to feel loved , or were on drugs

I'm not sure what you mean by a thin line, Trisher?

Of course men are also subjected to violence, but the answer to that is for the perpetrators (mostly other men) to change their behaviour.

This thread is largely focussed on male sexual violence/harrassment towards women. Most of us have acknowledged that some false allegations are made though very few, of course devastating for the innocent man on the receiving end. No one has suggested that only women are at risk, men and boys are more often attacked in the streets - primarily by other men.

I'm not sure what "its a very thin line to cross"means in response to Sue D's post. The reality is that two women are murdered every week, mainly by current or ex male partners. Sexual violence against men, women and children is largely perpetrated by men.
None of those statements mean I'm anti male or painting all women as victims. As has been said, the woman who embarked on some kind of relationship with HW has said she wanted to somehow sanitise the experience of being raped. What seem to be ridiculous responses are all to common as we saw with the young women and girls sexually exploited in various English towns in recent years.
I'm somewhat puzzled be the determination shown by some to minimise or reject women's reported experience. Yes, there will be some false allegations but that was exactly what was said in the early months of the JS investigation, that women were "jumping on the bandwagon". Ask any woman who has been interviewed as part of any sexual abuse investigation, whether they are the complainant or not - many say they'd never do it again and would advise their friends to avoid making reports. Yes, that isn't what we want to happen, we all want to see women empowered but as has been said several times on this thread, its the negative, critical comments made here that contributes to women keeping quiet.

I think it's a very thin line to cross and particularly at the moment SueDonim I was thinking about the BBC link you gave and about using public transport and moving around in cities. Most figures show the real recipients of violence are actually young men and male on male violence is as widespread if not more widespread than male-female violence. When I have witnessed aggravation and verbal abuse on public transport it has often been groups of male teenagers and one of the responsibilities undertaken as a parent and GP of boys is warning them how to avoid such encounters, in other words how to modify their behaviour so they are safe. This perception that it is only women who are in danger is totally wrong.

I don't see that saying that someone has harassed you necessarily means you're claiming to be a victim. You can still be strong and I'm sure many of those women are.

The woman who said she was raped by HW and then had an affair with him has stated that she embarked on the affair in an effort to wipe out the memory of being raped, to try and legitimise the rape, if you like.

As for calling women 'easy lays', as someone did earlier on in this thread - I cannot believe how judgmental that is.

I see what you mean Anya You were right-walk away!

I have no idea what you are dribbling on about trisher and no intention of being dictated to by someone like you.

"Could" "please" "refrain" not actually terms of abuse are they? I asked politely. I noticed you omitted to repost the "It has nothing to do with gender" Obviously you really don't like accuracy do you?
If there was one thing those women did for me GGMK2 it was that they enabled me to deal with people-women. men, anyone who used personal criticism when they had nothing else to fall back on.

See what I mean trisher ???

Could you also try sticking to the subject- we've had dyslexia mentioned and now the mentally ill. I assume you don't want to discuss disability rights with me so please refrain from bringing such things into the debate.

Get you. What happened to the last person you spoke to like that trisher? Oh yes, they were your colleagues when you went into teaching and they wouldn't let you get away with it by the sound of it either.

No one has asked women to dress demurely. No one has said women aren't sometimes victims
No one has suggested it is culturally acceptable for men to abuse women. No one has blamed women.
You seem to live entirely in a fantasy world where you make up things to suit your own preconceptions. Try actually reading some of my posts. Try understanding that women can be strong, and women can do what they wish, that women can stand up and say they will not be victims. That they will not subject themselves to a culture that asks them to change their appearance to fit a pre-conceived standard. That they can shout and scream from the rooftops that they are lionesses and not to be messed with.
It doesn't mean abuse will stop. It doesn't mean there won't be false abuse allegations. It does mean women will be strong, resourceful and powerful and reap rewards from this.
Could you also try sticking to the subject- we've had dyslexia mentioned and now the mentally ill. I assume you don't want to discuss disability rights with me so please refrain from bringing such things into the debate. It has absolutely nothing to do with gender.

If I come across this in RL I just walk away.

trisher I’ve given up trying to make that point (about portraying women as victims) and refuse to reply to any of these incoherent rants. There are those who read things into posts which were never said or intended but that’s because they are simply incapable of listening

What was irrelevant? People - mainly women - are being abused. Your answer is to stick to old wives tales about how women must protect themselves. Mine is to understand that we need to make it culturally unacceptable for men to behave in this way. Yours has never worked and allows those who are mentally ill to be extreme abusers. Why not just think there may be another way rather than putting all the responsibility and blame on women as your posts do.

If a woman is abused she is, at that time, a victim. You now appear to be blaming me for behaviour of others, just by talking about it and not agreeing with you! Blaming me for abuse that I cannot control - any more than the women can by dressing demurely, etc.

I wonder if you understand anything GGMk2. Anything I post is just a reason for you to go off on a rant about something totally irrelevant. Still if it makes you happy.
What I am saying is that if we make harassment the norm we are saying women who are not harassed are in some way different. Perhaps we should be asking instead why do some women want to be portrayed as victims and not as strong women?
You are as usual reading things into my posts that aren't there. And actually I don't know why I bother replying to you. You seem to want to make women victims. I want them to be lionesses.

Too many errors but hope it is readable.

I wonder what abut those of us who have never experienced sexual harassment, are we then supposed to think there is something wrong with us?

What a strange thing to say. I am trying to understand what you are suggesting trisher.

When my daughter (who is was then and therefore is now, severely dyslexic) had just been through all the bullying by people in power (teachers sadly in this instance) and we were sorting out what could be done, another eight or nine year old started shouting at her saying it wasn't fair - why couldn't she be dyslexic too. Obviously she could be forgiven because she did not understand but surely you are not saying it's not fair because you don't feel you are not getting enough attention?

A little understanding of how lucky you have been would really help. I do see the need you have to try and make the world a place where if you obey the right rules you will be safe as that is very comforting but it is simply not true. Life - and the extremes of humanity such as the predatory male - do not work by the rules we would think are reasonable.

Why does one man hide his daughters in a cellar for years regularly raping them. Why do people like Ian Bradey exist and get away with things for years. Why do predators like Jimmy Saville get away with what may have been hundreds of incidence of abuse. It is because they do not feel the need to obey any rules - none that you can imagine or put in place.

Other than locking women away - and then you may be locking them up with a familial predator - yours is not the answer to this problem. Society will not be able to deal with this until it accepts what may initially seem unacceptable and listen to the women who have been abused. Your old wives tales simply will not work.

The Victoria programme. A woman worked on a building site, it was said to her best she didn't wear tight jeans because it could cause comments. This suggestion was harassment !

OMG does that mean all the young men I met who tried to proposition me or invite me out were actually harassing me? I just thought they were a bit sad and inexperienced. And actually I wasn't very nice to some of them. Well at least now I know they deserved it. But who knew???

Sorry, phone is a bit erratic today. Let's not forget that some women have made false accusations too, in other cases. Lynette Antony was mentioned, I couldn't understand why she later went out to dinner with the man who allegedly raped her. I'm not supporting HW at all he seems a very unpleasant predator. However there does need to be some balance

Yes let's not forget that some w

A clumsy chat up line is now sexual abuse. I experienced bottom pitchers, the arm a little too long around your waist if looking at a newspaper, was I sexually harassed?

Rubbish, no I was not, just told them where to go.

the one place where I have been reduced to tears , really hurt ? gransnet

I wonder what abut those of us who have never experienced sexual harassment, are we then supposed to think there is something wrong with us? Or could it simply be that we accept there are unpleasant people in the world? In my early teaching career I was much more scared of some of the women I met who had been in teaching for years, and were very able to put you down, and would, if they imagined you were getting a bit above yourself, than I was of any of the men (who were often the headteacher). These women were very critical, was it harassment? I don't think so it was just someone being unpleasant.