substance and alcohol abuse

Ah, Iam64, accepting that alcoholism is a disease and that it is not quite as easy to be responsible doesn't mean you have to collude with the alcoholic. As a family we had to ensure that presents we bought could not be sold to get money for booze or drugs, we didn't give money but would always be there for food and medical assistance, etc. Encouragement to resist was always the top of our agenda and there was little point in going down the "you've disappointed us again" route because that is a given and shame is just another excuse to reach for the chemical fix.
I can believe that ex-users are less likely to make excuses for a user. It is a bit like people who have given up smoking, there are none so righteous...!
I don't think you're wrong to ask the question. It sometimes helps to see things from another perspective and any discussion gives us the opportunity to bring this hideous affliction out into the open.

Well different opinions. I had the most beautiful daughter any mother could have, for 38 years she was my joy, my world, for ten years she was my world , my tears. One thing which never changed was love

I 've re read my OP after reading icanhandthemback's comments and I can see that it may have suggested I believe that some "choose" addiction. My question had meant to be why do some choose not to take up offers of help, or to make the huge effort needed to avoid drugs or alcohol.
Bridgeit, my comment about people who have themselves been addicts being less likely to make excuses for those who abuse substances is based on many discussions with former addicts who when we spoke were working with addicts. Forty five years ago, I was given a lecture by the individual who ran the biggest charity supporting drug users in our city. He told me that because he'd been a user for years, he knew all the lies and deceits and it didn't help the user to collude with their fantasies. I understand there are some posters who will find that harsh. I was early in my training and work with substance misusers and it helped me to take a step back from my view that all of them were victims of some kind. I'm not disputing the awful experiences or vulnerability many have that contribute to their slide into addiction but my question remains, is it unreasonable to expect all of us to take some responsibility for our behaviour. I don't mean to cause distress to anyone by asking this question. I know many of us have first hand experience of the devastation caused by drug/alcohol abuse and recognise there are no easy answers.

I have a cousin who has been in rcovery for 25 years and who attends AA meetings every day .I have no idea if he ever WAS an alcoolic or just a heavy drinker as many in their teens are but he made the effort to free himsellf of it and has had a successful career and social life without alcohol.Sadly his marriage and relationships haven't fared so well ,I believe the things that caused him to drink e.g.losing both his parents before he was 16 ...could be at the root of his problems but he says that counsellors dont believe thats the case .Its interesting to see others have had issues with counsellors on here .maybe he should change who he sees.

Bravo NanMacGeek. I hope your son succeeds x

NanaMacGeek, I hope he will be able to do that too and whilst he might relapse, all the time he tries to get back on the wagon, there is always hope. I wish you and your DS all the luck in the world.

Like Anniebach, and some other posters, I could not walk away from my alcoholic DS either. He didn't drink because his friends did, he didn't have any friends. I don't suppose he knows when he moved from being a social drinker to being dependent. I think he gets comfort from AA meetings now because he has others who understand how he feels, and he enjoys their company.

I've seen compassion for dependent drinkers on this thread, I'm thankful for that. However, I found that there was little compassion from the medical profession. When my DS asked for help, he needed it at the time of asking. We tried to help him but he led us such a dance and then he was filled with shame. We used our retirement savings for private, residential rehab. The counsellor went far and above what I would have expected, DS still attends weekly group meetings with him and, on the last occasion of a lapse, DS was able to go and see him to talk over what went wrong (last lapse was in 2016). There has been no additional cost.

DS has plans, he has a job and his car licence but he is so ashamed. I'm worried that the loneliness that probably led him to drink has now been replaced by shame that will continue to isolate him unless there is a change in the public perception of alcoholics. People are beginning to speak out openly about their mental health issues but only a few celebrities admit to being recovering alcoholics. The prevailing attitude is that alcoholics should take responsibility for themselves, some are genetically predisposed to being alcoholics, they can be violent and they can't be trusted. I'd like to see alcoholism classed as a mental health issue, but that might mean society as a whole would have to address it's uneasy relationship with alcohol too.

I'd like to add that I am immensely proud of DS. I just hope that, for the rest of his life he will be able to look people in the eye and say, ‘I don't touch alcohol, I enjoy life without it'.

I hope.

Iam64,could you expand a bit on your thread ie,’ those who have been addicted are less likely to make excuses for people who abuse substances’

Thank you Antonia x

varian, nobody is born bad, things happen along the way which may screw them up, like bad parenting, chemical imbalances, etc, so they do bad thingsI don't think anybody disputes that alcoholics can act in a way which hurts people but the discussion started about whether they 'choose' to be alcoholics so should take responsibility for their behaviour. I think the majority of recovering alcoholics are thoroughly ashamed of the things they have done in their drive to get alcohol or whilst under the influence but before that, their judgement is severely impaired so it is a moot point that they are fully responsible.

Anniebach I don't have anything to add to this discussion, but wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss and hope you will find peace one day. I don't post every day here but I read most posts and you are often in my thoughts.

There are reasons why people become reliant & eventually hooked on substances, the difficulty is getting them to a place of help ,understanding & dealing with these reasons, before they become hooked , but all too often it is the other way around,because for what ever reason the underlying problems are the last thing that surfaces, making recovery all the more difficult.

Is there not a difference between an excuse and an explanation? I think there is

It is all very well to say that alcoholism is a disease and alcoholics are therefore not responsible for their behavior, but when that behaviour hurts other people, as it so often does, can we ever distinguish between "mad and bad"?.

Some good people become alcoholics and behave badly. Some people who become alcoholics are actually quite bad people to start with so does their alcoholism give them an excuse for whatever harm they do to others?

Thank you, Iam, me too.
Jenpax, me too. I made the decision very early on that I would never take drugs and living with alcoholism in the family made me very aware of the slippery slope. When I met my DH, our biggest arguments were about drink because he had got into a habit of having a drink or 6 every night. I just knew that I did not want that for me or my children whilst he couldn't see the problem as it was what he was used to with his ex-wife. We decided that the rest of our relationship was worth keeping so compromised by limiting alcohol intake to the Government recommended amount so I could relax about it. Within weeks he was no longer drinking at all in the evenings and often has water with me when we go out for a meal. His ex-wife though has never been able to cut back and it has impacted her relationships enormously. When my DH looks back now he can see that alcohol played an enormous role in the break up of their marriage.
When I look around me and see how many people have problems regulating intake, I find it quite concerning as alcoholism creeps up on you and you feel like you can control it until you really can't.

icanhand, I hope your daughter can get the help she needs with her daughter. It's exhausting and so worrying to have such difficult mental health issues with a youngster. It's also so difficult to manage our own feelings whilst dealing with a system that at best feels cumbersome and at worst feels judgemental and unhelpful. There are some great practitioners around, here's hoping your granddaughter is linked to one

Iam64, I am so glad that a diagnosis for your DGS has made such a difference to him. My DD is just writing a letter to remove her DD from school for a short while as her anxiety is through the roof at the moment where they are moving. She will continue to push for a proper diagnosis so that hopefully her DD learns to control her anxiety rather than shutting down her life like it did my DD's.

jenpax - thanks for your post. Your response to growing up with an alcoholic mother mirrors those of close friends and family members. like you, they don't drink or take drugs etc and "being around drunk or tipsy people triggers high levels of stress and anxiety.. even now'.
Interesting that you're another wounded warrior, doing your best to help others x

Grannyactivist your story mirrors mine! My mother was a functioning alcoholic that is to say she held down a good job and managed to keep the house going, however every night she drank between half and a whole bottle of whiskey and became argumentative and aggressive this was frightening and disturbing for me as a child and it got worse as I got older so that when I left home for uni I never returned to live with my parents! I came to understand that her drinking was a form of self medication, she was deeply depressed and unhappy in her personal life yet came from an RC convent school upbringing so didn’t believe in divorce.
The result for me was that I too have never been drunk, never taken drugs and don’t gamble in fact the issues around alcohol effected my social interactions as being around drunk or tipsy people triggers high levels of stress and anxiety in me even now? I believe that drinking is often a form of self medication my mother unfortunately for her viewed depression as a form of weakness and would not admit to it so drank to cope
I too have worked with vulnerable clients many of whom suffer from addictions and it’s effects and many of these have had untreated mental health issues, especially the homeless and ex services (PTSD)

icanhand - I know I said there is more mental illness but I agree that a large part of that is that we're better at recognising and acknowledging it.
I have a number of close friends whose father's would these days be diagnosed with PTSD, anxiety or depression, any number of diagnosis would be possible. they had what was then referred to as "a bad war", in Japanese prison camps for example. They had mood swings, drank to excess at times, were sometimes violent to their wives and children but generally, managed to hold down professional work and were seen as "successful" men. It's only as we've all grown older that the obvious connection with their war experience has helped friends realise how much their fathers suffered.

When I was at school we had lots of "naughty boys". These days, we have boys with a diagnosis of ADHD, autism etc. One of my grandsons is very bright but was so often in trouble at primary school he was labeled "disruptive". He was diagnosed at autistic at age 8 and it helped enormously. He was given various responsibilities at school which he loved. It helped him avoid the pressures of the playground and also, meant he wasn't spending so much time in exclusion or outside the head's office. The teachers were more understanding as a result of information they got from CAMHS and he was able to begin to develop an understanding of what the diagnosis meant for him.

Is it that we have more mental health illness or we are better at recognising it? I know that every report I had from school spoke of my mood swings, melancholy and lethargy but it was only as a middle-aged adult it was classed as depression so I got treatment. It was only when I stopped the treatment and reverted to Eeyore status, did I realise that I'd suffered all my life and treatment would probably be lifelong. Similarly, I am able to look at my GD and recognise behaviours which could be classed as anxiety; with my own daughter, I just thought it was bad behaviour. The internet has helped enlighten us as has tv, etc. These things weren't always talked about.

It is Annie, the number of adults and children needing mental health services continues to increase.

Is it not also true that the numbers needing help with mental health has increased greatly ?

That’s true that mh has long been underfunded but it’s inescapable that it’s got much worse as a result of funding being taken from statutory agencies. One knock on effect is that charitable services no longer get any funding from local authorities so it’s lose, lose and lose again.

Again it seems "one size fits all". Some addicts tend only to mix with people living the same life style and not -

heavy drinkers and substance users tend only to mix with people living the same lifestyle