Changes in our Society

Yes, they do Paddyann
And I cannot understand how they can do that.

Yes indeed, spot on Paddyann

My ex son in law walked away from two fabulous kids,my brother in law did the same, only worse,as soon as his new wife got pregnant he phoned his then 12 year old daughter and told her he wouldn't be seeing her or her brother again as he was expecting twins!!
Almost 30 years later he hasn't been in contact of any kind with them Yes Nonnie SOME men have problems with controlling exes ,a lot more dont .They just want their single life back or to move on without baggage.

I don't know where Christine Keeler's mother was Annie perhaps she was an abused child as well. One thing we know about child abuse is that sometimes it is continued into the next generation. Please note I have not said all abused children become abusers.
I agree Nonnie some women use their children as weapons and fathers are sometimes subjected to awful pressures and just give up. Just as some men walk away and leave their families.
One thing I would say we take for granted today is the provision of fresh water and sanitary facilities. It wasn't that long ago that people had a loo in the backyard and no bathroom. Now everyone expects an en-suite.

paddyann have you considered why men walk away? Why they give up their children? Yes, some are feckless but some cannot cope with not being allowed to see their children and having to fight for access. A couple of years ago I spoke to a policeman whose brother had an abusive wife who wouldn't let him see his children. He gave up the fight and committed suicide. I hope that the recent law about coercive behaviour will be used by men as well as women. We have seen a lot on here about women who make their partner choose between her and his family.

A man fighting for his children is disadvantaged and imo social workers assume the woman is right unless the man is in a position to prove otherwise which is not easy.

So this is equality? Mothers no longer have responsibility for their child’s Upbringing

Me neither, Iam64.

Exactly minesaprosecco. When men abuse or exploit a woman, or a teenage girl, it's easier to blame the woman or the mother , than attempt to understand why so many men choose to behave badly.
Saying this does not means I;m anti male.

My response were to Annie.

Oh, so that means it's all a woman's fault again, I suppose.

Presumably her mother didn't protect her either.

What has the whereabouts of Christine Keeler's mother got to do with whether trisher's accurate summary of CK's life is accurate.
Women and mothers spent far too long being told that a woman/mothers place is in the wrong.

Trisher, the charity dinner? If all that is claimed a bout Keeler is true, where was her mother ?

Re.to single mothers in the past.
My paternal grandfather was born to an unmarried mother in 1888.I don't think he was ever told who his father was.His mother went back to work in live in jobs, she was a nursemaid and later a housekeeper.He was brought up by her parents as one of their own and as a child thought his aunts and uncles were his sisters and brothers.
The main difference then, beside the shame on the family was there was no state help for single mothers.They had to either give their baby away for adoption, or in my great grandmother's case allow her parents to regard her child as one of their's while she left home to work.
When I was doing midwifery training in the 1960s many of the unmarried mothers in the hospital wore a wedding ring which either had been borrowed from someone or was a cheap replica one from Woolworth's as they felt shame about being single
We were told by the senior staff to always address them as Mrs never Miss.
There is no pressure to get married now if you have a child or children and also no shame like it used to be.I have several young relatives, including one of my granddaughters who have children with their partners and no mention of getting married, they say "Why spoil things?"

Nonnie but a lot of men happily walk away from their children thinking if they get a new family the "old" ones get sidelined.Its usually the mothers who bring up the children when relationships break up.
I have a son,and he has his child 50% of the week and has had since the split almost 8 years ago,thats quite unusual where we live ,

I don't think I have ever classed 'all women as victims' Annie. But Christine Keeler, a woman abused as a girl by her stepfather and his friends, diagnosed as suffering from malnutrition as a teenager and sent to a holiday home to recuperate, had a premature baby who died when she was 17 is surely one. Or do you think she somehow was responsible for those things?

I use to take Spare Rib. I don’t think there can be equality of the sexes . Yes equal pay etc. But I am not comfortable with the aggression. Last winter there was that fund raising for charity dinner and with respect trisher went, in my opinion over the top, all men were sex fiends all the girls were innocents who had little choice but to be hostesses and didn’t know what the job entailed. Same when we discussed Christine Keeler, yes some girls are abused but they do not head for London and become topless waitresses or nightclub boobs and bums entertainment. Keeler had an affair with Peter Rachman or have affairs with several men at the same time, she made rather a lot of money ‘spilling the beans ‘ .

There cannot be equality when all women are classed victims and all men villains, there are male and female victims and male and female villains, whilst in the centre are men and women getting on with lives , both giving and taking, . I think this ‘my husband is a feminist ‘ is irritating .

Not all women are good, not all men are bad.
And some men can be the victims of domestic violence but often are ashamed to admit it.

Not all women are good, not all men are bad. There is a huge spectrum of behaviour and when a partnership or marriage breaks down the causes can be many. But at least the couple don't have to stay together. It has taken me many years to come to terms with growing up in a relationship with parents who loved each other but who were not really good for each other. At times we kids were 'piggy in the middle'. Hopefully even though divorce may be difficult children at least are spared that.
I am pleasedthat my sons don't have to be 'macho' men but can give and receive cuddles, hold a baby and show affection for their children.
I still think we have a long way to go before women are truly equal and I am sad that there no longer seems to be the political and revolutionary spirit there once was amongst women. It seems to have been replaced with a celebrity culture interested in appearances. Where we once had Spare Rib they have OK and Hello.

So true Nonnie, trying to remember that ‘fathers’ campaign , wives having custody , fathers visiting rights , but the wife makes this difficult . I think we have gone too far, all women are victims, so not true

Annie if a man wants to leave a relationship he stands a strong chance of losing his children, a woman does not have the same risk, she will almost always be given custody. Children are often used as a weapon against men.

We talk of women being trapped in a marriage, must be the same for some men.

Yes Iam64, after reading your post, I realise I was thinking of woman lives predominantly.
Some Men’s lives were very much tougher than to day, manual labour, long hours, the pressure of being the only breadwinner no help from the Government etc.
Our area has a beautiful building which was once the work house, & I know of two people who were born there .

Yes, you've missed it Iam64 see Diana54 Thu 06-Sep-18 20:38:36

Who is expressing bias against men on this thread? Maybe I missed something.
I am happily married and love all the men in my family/friendship circle.
Women are more likely to be subjected to horrific levels of domestic or public abuse than men are. One woman each week (at least) is killed by their partner. Women are at the highest level of risk when they attempt to end relationship. These are facts.
I don't need the need to defend either men or women who abuse their partners, or indeed their children.