Abuse and the failure to prevent it.

You only watched a snapshot of a few minutes - you don't really know what is going on.

The girl may have disabilities herself - autism or Tourettes syndrome for example and her mother may be mortified by people watching her and judging her and perhaps saying nothing is the best way to deal with the situation without escalating it

I have been thinking a lot about adult social services at the moment as they seem to barely exist.
My nightmare neighbour is back. She was give a care co-Ordinator and told that her care plan included moving and that she would be helped with doing that.
She spent nearly 7 months at a place for people with anti-social behaviour but has come back pregnant.
She was better behaved for a few days but then rang our buzzers loudly and repeatedly at 1 am. When I didn't get out of bed immediately she threw rocks at my window and stood hammered on the windows of my downstairs neighbour shouting at them. The husband there is nearly 90 and going blind.
My next door neighbour's grandson eventually let her in (the council had told us to 'just ignore it' when this kept happening before) as his grandmother is in her late 80s and bedbound.
She is away with the fairies at the moment. She is going to marry Robbie Williams when he finishes transitioning so expecting her to arrange a move is ridiculous.
Her flat is at ground level, has full length windows an hedges at the side of the window. She is targeted by men who shout at her through the windows if she won't let them in and the police have been no help so neither she or us are safe with her there (the men threaten us if we try to help her).
The Housing Officers cannot help her to move because the law has changed after some started helping their friends and we can't discuss it with anyone there because of confidentiality.
Nothing is going to happen without adult social services getting involved. Her family have tried to help but can't cope with her for very long and she sister is also anti-social so we don't really want her around.
All we get is more diary logs to fill in for the council to ignore. None of my neighbours can do this without me going through every line with them so it is really stressful.
I had to sleep in my living room last night because my bedroom was full of pot smoke and it was hard to breathe.
I alternate between wanting to help her and wanting to throw things at her. Adult social services are the only answer but, as you have found, they present people with a Catch 22. If she was well enough to ask for help, she would be well enough to arrange a transfer.
Sorry to make this about me but I've had about an hour's sleep.
In your situation, all you can do is think about how you might be able to help in a similar situation. Maybe if you had gone over and started to help the lady yourself and then say to the teenager 'can you just grab that' or some such. I think we have all had a 'why didn't I step in' moment.
It may not have been as bad as it seems. I'm not sure that I was always as nice to my mother as a teenager as I should have been. I would have helped with packages etc.but she can be a bit of a martyr and not particularly encouraging of help.
You did try to help after the event. I do think that some of these rules are designed to get around the impact of cuts. Some councils seem to be more flexible than others.

I witnessed a teenager screaming at her parents in a restaurant insisting that they buy her a new mobile phone. If they did then that was the answer for her bad behaviour; she always got what she wanted no matter how she behaved.. Some people have no idea how to discipline their children and that is why they grow up to be obnoxious teenagers. Also, no excuse allow them to be grossly overweight. Whatever the reason for this altercation you witnessed, ultimately it's usually down to poor parental disciplining.

Local authority services do not have the staff or the funding to deal with anything but the most serious cases. Many staff work overtime for free and go way beyond their duties to try and deliver a service that has almost no resources or funding. Social workers are overloaded with cases and yet have nowhere to refer people to - we do not have enough children's homes, foster carers, residential schools, elderly homes, nursing homes, midwives, care staff, physios, OT's, mental health workers and so on. I work with young people now, have lots of experience of disability issues and services and had to fight for services for my mother before she died and now for my father's palliative care. Until we get a government who provides local authorities with more resources, services will not get better.

Strikes me some of the comments here are a bit harsh.

However, the only thing OP really can do is offer to help if the situation occurs again.

I do realize this takes courage, but an offer to help should be possible. If you get a dusty answer, you can just say no more.

It's a police matter. Things have moved on a lot in witnessing abuse like this. Often what can be seen in public is only the tip of the iceberg. The police know how to deal with nasty teenagers and a few hours at the station can change a young persons' life for the good.

I can imagine it can be very upsetting to witness this sort of abuse. The older lady may be worn down by her disability and/or illness plus having to put up with this girls' bad behaviour.

The store can help police identify them and do a welfare call. Don't worry about the age of the girl, she will come under police radar at some time as she will go on to be a nuisance somewhere else.

Abuse of vulnerable is no longer acceptable in any form. Those who see it and don't report are as bad as the abusers.

I would never condone abuse of any kind. But I do think that in this particular situation you did not know enough about either party to merit reporting it to anybody. The mother was clearly able to shop, drive etc. The daughter may have had behavioural or emotional problems you know nothing about.

endrel123 - how on earth is this a matter for the Police? What is the offence they're investigating.

Lizbethanne - well said.

Email or write to the head of the school as this girl was showing her school in a bad light.

Iam police investigate welfare and civil matters.

They mop up a lot of social care work these days...

Lizbethanne I agree with you and I don't understand why people don't prioritise this kind of issue when it matters. It is very frustrating.
Another problem is that the services are decimated but there is no attempt to make the alternatives better. Care in the community is fine when the community can cope and is listened to but the system effectively says 'hey community, this is your problem now. We can't talk to you about it because of confidentiality but keep an eye out for any problems regardless of whether you have the skills of emotional strength to deal with them or not.'

Iam64 We have the police here several times a week. It would often be better for it to be an ambulance or a psychiatric nurse but it is the police or nothing. I don't call them now but other neighbours do because they don't understand the situation.

Westerly and Jaycee5 ...... Maybe a local newspaper would be interested in nightmare neighbour stories and the lack help or resolve available to you. People have been killed in these type of scenarios when someone with obvious mental health issues can just snap for no apparent reason.

Very harsh Endre you have no idea at all of the backstory what if the teenager had just been bullied or abused and was overcome trying to get her mothers attention what if she has ADHD you are judging she needs a few hours in the police station without knowing a thing .....oh my word
A teenage girl having a temper tantrum is not a police matter at all half of the original complaint is that the teenage girl did nothing to help the mum and as they went out to the car she was grumbling at putting the trolly away talk about a storm in a teacup

The mother did exactly the right thing she ignored the bad behaviour

Endre123
I don't know what sort of la la land you live in but here in Southend pop 179,000, they would probably have a go at me for wasting police time.

It was the swearing and criticising which attracted my attention in the first place. The fact that this was done in a relatively quiet voice made me think that the girl knew what she was doing by not openly and loudly making a scene. I only heard because I was right next to them. If the girl had problems she would be unlikely to be able to control her abuse and swearing to a low level only to be heard by the lady with the arm crutches or so she thought. It seem very cruel and calculating and very much as if she knew exactly how to issue the abuses.
It shows the changes in what is considered acceptable these days. I would never have dared swear in the presence on my parents or any other adult. The language is not acceptable and the conduct is not acceptable. They are getting "permission" to act badly by being allowed to disrespect people.

The fact that the police are the only service that has to respond to a 999 type call doesn't mean we should all use them as such.
Yes, call 999 if someone is a risk to themselves or others but not because a possibly stroppy/ unhappy/anxious teenager is being disrespectful at the supermarket.

Iam 101 is the non-emergency number in which you can report concerns to the police, and you can also email them.
I think it actually does give confidence to the public if they know that community policing is there for nonemergency situations as well as the headline stuff.

Thanks janeainsworth, I'm aware of 101. One of the difficulties is that it often times takes an hour for the call to be answered.
That tells us a great deal about the pressure the Police are under. People do seem to feel that it's ok to call the Police for all manner of things that don't involve crime or high risk to individuals.

I do feel that as you stated you'd had 10 years of mental abuse and your confidence shattered you have projected your own fears and memories into this situation Westerly which is understandable but the mother sounds perfectly able to sort her own issues out Nothing you have reported sounds as if the mother was anything other than calm and quiet and taking little notice of the girl The fact she was on crutches is really irrelevant
I was imaging the girl was having a loud melt down screaming and shouting but you say she was swearing and talking in a quiet tone
To be honest swearing unfortunately is seen as ordinary words to many of today’s teens and doesn’t have the shockfactor it does to us In my parents time damn, blast and ruddy were seen as dreadful words now they are mild and barely seen as swearing
I think you meant well but over reacted nothing you have reported makes it a police or social services situation

BlueBelle - Alas I am very aware of my past and how things affected me. I could be projecting or I could be seeing the start of what affected me and not wanting it to go on for the lady or be as destructive as it was for me. It started when DC was a teenager at school and I had been in hospital with a serious situation (can kill people) but also leaves a lot of weakness, Since then other conditions have been added to my list and proportionally the abuses increased. I just don't want that for me or anyone if I thought I could do something about it.
Obviously after last night and today I can do nothing about it and such conduct will only increase and affect more people especially as we are supposedly living longer. That is not what I expected at this stage of life.

I would ring the school and arrange to speak to the person who deals with pupils conduct. This example could be used as a teaching topic on relationships and the girl might well realize that this could possibly be her.

Coconut I don't know if they would but, difficult and often impossible, though she is, I do think that she has a difficult life and I don't think that publicity would really help. I have also found that there is blowback to action. When I complained to the police, their reaction was not to deal with the men who were abusing her but to raid her flat which involved smashing her door down. They put my complaint on the computer so it comes up if I ring 101 or 999 and I get a very unpleasant reaction from the operator. Getting publicity would just cause difficulties with the Council down the line.
I spoke to a builder today who said that they keep going to her flat but she doesn't keep the appointments. We are hoping that they are getting the flat in a fit state to be transferred. He said that she was sleeping on a sofa and there is no other furniture in there so we are still a bit hopeful.

We don't need to know the back story. Things have changed a lot in the last few years about reporting abuse. It is always better to be safe and report something that alarms us. We are not expected to investigate but we have a duty to protect anyone we see being abused in particular a child, a disabled person or the elderly, anyone vulnerable.

All abusers have a back story, an excuse to why they treat another human being badly and it's not always up to the victim to report it. Why all official advice is to report anything of concern we witness. Lives have been saved that way.

The stress on that poor mother must have been overwhelming. The store might be able to identify them so no need to contact the school. The police would do a welfare check and maybe that would help get them the right support.

When we witness a volatile family row it is hard to judge the seriousness of the situation. My DGD1, aged 13, had a furious OTT tantrum the other morning. A combination of acne, raging hormones and worry about something in school. My DD2, her mum, took the brunt of DGD's distress. It looked awful! DD1 ignored what she could. To an onlooker it would seem that a child had been thrown out of a car and abandoned.
Mother & daughter were soon reconciled & back to a normal calmish relationship ...until the next time! They love each other dearly!