This "pro women" thing?

I agree as well... nobody should get a job based on anything other than their ability to do said job. Why would anyone want a job on any other basis anyway., knowing you may have been second choice.

My sentiments exactly, Phoenix. I’m getting to the stage where I think ‘I would rather hear a man reading the news, etc’, and Radio 2 is now ‘overrun ‘ with women presenters.

Not a Radio 2 listener myself but I am wondering if it bothered you when Radio 2 and the news were 'overrun' with men presenters? And if not, why not?

Also, what percentage have to be of one sex to be considered they are overrunning?

Hmmm. Well I am joining you behind the sofa too Phoenix. I appreciate WHY there has been positive discrimination and I would like to hope there is a more even playing field of late in terms of who is considered for jobs, roles etc. I do firmly believe merit has to be the deciding factor though.

This is by the by but OH and I have a knowing nod at each other when watching dramas that all of a sudden have only women as top bosses. And they all happen to be tough, ballsy women and nothing like the strong and competent women I know in positions of 'power' who aren't loud and sweary and direct. Are we in danger of losing the plot now and going completely overboard , or OTT, when a certain sector has to be represented?

Tin hat on. Budge up behind the sofa. Have you brewed up phoenix - or should I not ask that of a woman any longer?

Or just that those individuals did / did not do their jobs well, grumpa?

Totally agree with you Phoenix. Should be always the best person for the job. Not discriminating against one group can lead to discrimination against another.

I haven't read all the posts so sorry if someone has already commented on the case against Cheshire police. A first class recruit for the force was rejected and he sued the force for discrimination. The force was trying to boost diversity and was found guilty of discrimination against this candidate who was a 'white, heterosexual male'.

Oh, how pleased I am to read all these comments. For quite a time now I have been very aware of the many women on tv reading the news, giving the weather, presenting the shows, giving their opinions and I am sick of it. I find that when a woman presents any programme I am looking at what she is wearing, whether she has a hair piece attached or had her boobs done, I am trying to put an age on her and - often I don't hear what they are saying. I have a GD who I would love be happy, do well and succeed in life. I also have a GS who I hope has the same opportunities when he grows up if he ticks all the boxes when his time comes.

You can’t look at a professional woman doing her job without picking her appearance apart and wondering whether she’s had a boob job?

Do you look at female doctors / lawyers / teachers the same way?

Eskay10, that tells us about your attitudes, nothing else.

If it bothers you, why not campaign for women presenters to have a 'uniform' as men do with their suits & ties?

Phoenix I agree with you.

Good point. I never thought of it it that respect

what kind of woman doesn''t want to see/hear other women on TV ? The young "blonde" who does the rugby interviews etc knows as much about the game as anyone who has played it so why shouldn't she do the interviews and pre match chat? If its the one I think it is she's from a well known sporting family and married to a Scottish rugby legend .Would you prefer her to be a Mary berry type and just bake for a living/

Totally agree the best person should get the job regardless of sex, race or disability. Radio 2 has quite a few female DJs now just to be PC and I find them banal.

I am an ardent believer in the best person for the job, male or female. But I have to say on seeing some of the posts on here "Welcome to 1919" Gransnet. Though actually it's not funny.

Reminds me of that research that showed that once a woman took up 30% of the conversation women were dominating.....

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Have to agree with Paddyann on this one. Of course the job needs to go to the most suitable candidate regardless of gender but the fact that men possess willies seems to gives them a distinct advantage, sadly.

I've been in one or two jobs were a male colleague has made a right Horlicks of a situation, been bailed out by a woman subordinate and then palmed things off as a masterstroke of HIS initiative.

It's what too many men do best......

purplepatch I agree with your post and particularly your last comment. It made me think of the Punch cartoon of several men and one woman sitting round a board table and the Chairman saying:

"That's an excellent suggestion, Miss Triggs. Perhaps one of the men here would like to make it".

Grannyrebel127 I don't think banality is the preserve of female DJs alone - it often seems to me a requirement of the job, whether for males or females.

I have a permanent copy of that terrific Miss Triggs cartoon on my computer Eloethan. It is applicable to so many situations

I think there almost needs to be positive discrimination for women to make up for the years and years of positive discrimination for men.

Of course, everyone wants the best person for the job, BUT... most employers will recruit in their own image - I work for an airline which for years has been run by male ex-RAF pilots. It has gone through various mergers, but ultimately all the bosses have been the same. They actively go out to recruit their friends from the Air Force.

Men and women make equally good pilots, but for years women were considered to be not as good. They are told they need to be more confident, more pushy, more assertive. Even though many of them are confident and assertive but show it in a different way to men. They also need to over-state it to even be considered, however it is a fine line.

Airlines have in the main been run by men for years. I find it strange that holiday airlines are run by mainly men, despite the fact that half of their customers are women. Why would you want to employ mainly men?

So now there is a "push" to encourage more women to become airline pilots (not in the airline I work for). The reason is that people look for jobs which represent who they are. When all they see as pilots are middle aged ex-RAF men, they assume that women are not even allowed to be pilots! (Yes, even today!). This is the same in many professions.

I also do talks in schools, and huge numbers of children say that boys become airline pilots, and girls become cabin crew.

I think it is similar in medicine and law.

So I actually agree with a bit of a push in the other direction. We have to aim for 75% women in posts, then we have a change of addressing the huge gender disparity in so many professions.

The Gender Pay Gap makes for interesting reading - men controlled power in companies for many years, and after women started working, they still refused to give them the promotions, even though they were more than capable. Men controlled it by refusing to offer school hours or other flexible working.

Men are not 50% of stay at home parents. Why? I constantly read that the woman stayed at home because the man had the higher salary, so it made sense. But how does that make sense? Why are all the men paid more? Why can't they both work 50% part-time? Why are the majority of part-time jobs poorly paid and worked by women. Why do fathers not step up to their responsibilities? I also am always hearing how the man cannot ask for flexible working or reduced hours because "it will affect my career". Yet it is ok for the women?

Sorry for my rant!!

Don't apologise, Razzy. Very well said .

I agree - you've made some very interesting points Razzy.

Razzy no need to apologise at all!

I’d just like to take you up on what you said about women in medicine.
In fact, for the last 25 years there have been more female undergraduates than male in medical schools.
www.bmj.com/bmj/section-pdf/959692?path=/bmj/360/8138/Careers.full.pdf

Of course, the numbers of female consultants to male ones might be a different matter.

I'm split on this one.

I love good female sports presenters -women play soccer and rugby so why shouldn't they commentate? even if they just know about it rather than playing, that's true of a number of male commentators. Clare Balding is great on racing and really researches other sports she's commentated on.

I think there is a problem with the number of female doctors, which is a problem with the NHS itself - eg the job has got even more overwhelming with staff shortages, increased paperwork, generous early retirement (which that mostly male generation of doctors is taking in droves). If you add to that women wanting to take maternity leave or go part time (really only works for GPs) then it becomes a huge organisational problem. I think there should be a review - many doctors including many men go on bank so they can choose when they work and get paid more, which causes another problem.

In the '90s it was obvious that there was going to be a problem with medical staff. Admission to medical school was (finally) based on exam results and not gender quotas, so that the girls were starting to outnumber the boys, and also the European Working time Directive was going to mean that the days of 90+ hour weeks were coming to an end.

By the nature of human biology, increasing numbers of doctors were going to want to take maternity leave. Then it became law that on return from maternity leave women could ask for part-time work rather than full-time. Naturally, some men began to ask for part-time work too, so that they too could spend more time with their young families rather than chase the megabucks.

Was there any effort to increase the number of medical school places when these changes were on the way? Of course not - the politician's planning cycle lasts no more than 5 years at the most, until the next election, and so committing to something as expensive with no pay-off for at least 10 years is not on their agenda.

So here we are. Hey ho.

Could not agree more Phoenix. Some say there should be a quota for women in political parties or on company boards. Just maybe if this was the case we would see the best person for the job but unless one could be assured this would be the case then IMO it is wrong. Another thing that annoys me is the minority groups -indigenous/LGBGTetc/ethnic and so on that demand equality and then want special acknowledgement. Does that not contradict the equality?

Apologies for joining this thread somewhat late, but I believe that the experience of our business regarding pay differentials may add to the thread content.

Last year during one of the regular staff conferences it was raised that on the operations side of the business all four of Assignment Team leaders ( known as assignment controllers) were men, and within the other members of those teams, the men were on higher salaries than that of the women members.

To ensure the company was operating within the Equalities Act, we undertook to carry out an in-depth analysis of the situation. At the conclusion of that analysis it was demonstrated that it was the working flexibility within the members of those teams that had brought about the above gender pay differential.

The Assignment Teams members are often called on to spend nights away from home and along with that also very often work long and unsocial hours. Within the foregoing, it was found that the male members of those teams even when they had families at home were consistently more ready to work away from home and readily engage in the other factors than the female team members who also had families at home.

The above has meant that the increased flexibility of the male members of those teams has increased comercial benefits to the company, and therefore they are more often selected for training to improve their qualifications and through that obtain higher grades, positions and salaries.

I believe that our analysis of the reasons for the pay differentials between male and female employees in our business is in common with similar circumstances in other companies, and that would indicate the problem is one of social and gender attitudes.

I realise that the above is "a can of worms" in regard to gender equality in employment, but that is not a problem that employers can solve. Instead, it is one for our society.

I will now don tin hat and join others behind the sofa.