I am scared for my grandchildren

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Your fears may or may not be founded, but you do need to research this trip to be as informed as possible. Talk to others whose grandchildren have made the trip, go in person and talk to the British Embassy, etc. My only alarm in your story was the car...a bit over the top. Best wishes

Nora, I totally understand your fears. Not so much b/c of what some Muslim gangs did, I'm sure your DD wouldn't marry that kind of man, but b/c there are differences from one culture to another. No doubt, some cultures have a different view of women than we do, and some even accept the idea of men physically abusing wives or children. NOT trying to increase your worries, just sympathizing w/ you.

Still, I agree w/ those who advise you to trust DD's judgment. She knows SIL, I'm sure. And if she thinks this visit is ok, then, no doubt, it is.

That's not to say you won't still be worried. I'm sure you will. But I agree w/ Tedber that "the only thing you can do is step back. Explain to your daughter that you are worried but that you respect her judgement and wish her a happy holiday." Well except that you've already let her know that you're worried and that didn't go over very well. So I would just wish her a happy holiday and hope for the best. Hugs!

Norabennette I think everyone is kind of going off the point here to be honest (me included). The problem is YOU are worried about it. Actually, there is NOTHING any of us can say to alleviate this fear.

I think we all worry about our children/grandchildren in various circumstances. Sometimes well founded, sometimes just in our minds. I was worried when my errant ex son in law decided he was going to take two of my grandchildren to meet his new family in Asia for a MONTH! It was totally unfounded and they arrived home and had had the time of their lives! He did, however, keep us informed by sending photos every step of the way. Maybe you could ask you daughter to send you photos on what'sapp? You can see how good a time they are having.

I think the only thing you can do is step back. Explain to your daughter that you are worried but that you respect her judgement and wish her a happy holiday.

Monica
I based my points on either my personal experience or the experiences of a v close friend. Male.
I was advised not to go to Pakistan when younger so I have not been there,
I do not want a lecture I merely joined in to acknowledge the OP's anxiety but I will not join in any longer because things said become easily torn out of shape on here.

I have however been to India and would not at all compare India to Pakistan. In fact that is a ridiculous and racist thing to do IMO

dailytimes.com.pk/544962/100-year-old-mosque-hosts-hindu-wedding-in-kerala/

Positive story about Muslims in India but posted in Pakistani newspaper.

I always read local newspapers when abroad, if in English. In India and Pakistan there are a number of papers in English, also available online, such as this Pakistani one dailytimes.com.pk/

Even glancing at headlines and ads shows that people are much the same everywhere - concerned about local issues such as roads and housing and wider ones, like Coronavirus. One thing I’ve noticed is that often a lot of aid is given locally to disaster victims- it doesn’t all come from first world countries.

The OP indicated that her daughter stood her ground during arguments with her partner regarding religion- In any other thread, someone having to stand their ground would be viewed as being manipulated by an aggressor- But not in this thread- Because he's Pakistani - And anything, at all, said about his behavior would be viewed as prejudice by those who haven't a prejudicial bone in their bodies

Partners often have disagreements where one has to stand their ground. That’s normal and nothing to do with race

Monica talks a lot of sense. I have mixed a great deal with Muslims, been to weddings, family celebrations and made most welcome. They are mostly, just like any other slice of society, respectful, law abiding and want to lead a good life often helping others. Being a Muslim is not all about rape and control, its about helping others less fortunate than yourself and caring for all your family.

I think its terrible that your daughter has been with this gentleman for 10 years and you don't know much about him or his family. They must think you very unfriendly.
Also Muslims do not practice FMG, the men though receive the cut as they call it at a very early age.

How nice to hear from someone with practical experience of a cross-cultural marriage.

M0nica, sharing vicarious travel and circumstance is not the same as first hand participation- Women may casually travel back and forth from Pakistan to the UK, never a thought of exercising caution- At all- Despite government issued warnings- Then again maybe they don't- Whatever the case, a female who has traveled back and forth from Pakistan to the UK has yet to contribute to the discussion-

The OP's daughter and now son in law haven't been married for several years, they weren't mutually exclusive for the previous 10- He was also involved with another woman-

The OP indicated that her daughter stood her ground during arguments with her partner regarding religion- In any other thread, someone having to stand their ground would be viewed as being manipulated by an aggressor- But not in this thread- Because he's Pakistani - And anything, at all, said about his behavior would be viewed as prejudice by those who haven't a prejudicial bone in their bodies-

Failure to take culture into consideration "after" an individual's behavior raises concerns or comes into question is a mistake-

I do hope their trip comes off without a hitch-

I have more questions than answers, though as someone married from a man from India, I have a few opinions.

Nora - does your sil have other family members here? If so, have you met them? Was he educated in UK?

Do you know what part of Pakistan he comes from - if so, Google it to find out more.

Your daughter is only 4 months pregnant- are they planning to go in next few months or after baby is born? Assuming one or both are working, they’re unlikely to be able to go for more than 3 weeks.

My own experience is that having met my future husband at university, I visited his family in India before we got married and again on multiple occasions with our children. My parents were very happy about our marriage (as I think they’d given up hope of me meeting anyone). However, our situation was different as my husband was Christian so many of the cultural issues didn’t apply.

With regard to perceptions of other countries and risks of violence, terrorism etc, I would agree with M0nica. A lot of media reports about India would suggest that it is rife with violence against women. While there are some cases, for the majority it is a safe place to visit and live. I’m always surprised at how relatively young children walk to school on their own, and my husband’s nieces seem to be comfortable going out alone at night. I know Pakistan may be possibly be different.

However, I do think OP has some reasons for concern, but should really try to get to know her sil better as a person, not as a potential threat. Without cross-questioning him, find out a bit more about his family and area of Pakistan he comes from. Maybe accept his offer of a car and ask him to accompany you driving - car journeys are often an easier place to chat than sitting down face-to-face.?

Pakistani Muslims are unlikely to practice FGM. Somalia, Eritrea, Egypt and some of the countries where its practiced, by Christians, Muslims and other faiths or no faith, for cultural reasons.
"I gather observing Muslims tend to be rather conservative people and a bit faddy duddy". So says Alexa who goes on to ask if he comes from 'some remote village where his relatives believe in keeping women subservient'.
As someone who has lived close to and worked closely with many members of the Muslim community - maybe its worth mentioning that people who follow the Muslim faith are as diverse as those of us who are Christians, atheists, Jehova's etc.

Norabenette wrote:

"Now I'm not claiming to be some expert on islam... but I have to ask the question Is it really safe for my girls to go off on this trip?"

The children will be safe from Pakistan rapists if their father, mother, and in laws are there to protect them. I bet Pakistan laws are strict about rape and murder.

I gather observing Muslims tend to be rather conservative people a bit fuddy duddy. Is the son in law an educated man ? Or does he come from some remote village where his relatives believe in keeping women subservient? Did you explicitly ask your son in law if he or his relatives approve of FGM? If so did he give you an explicit yes or a no?

pinkquartz, different countries have different cultures and laws. Pakistan's attitude to sexual crime is different to ours - and I am not defending it. However, police approaches to women and girls reporting rape in this country are nothing to boast about. Rape in this country is rarely prosecuted and the conviction rate is even lower. Your example of British police putting community harmony above prosecuting offenders and protecting victims, is a classic example of how our police ignore victims, especially if they come from poor and disadvantaged backgrounds.

Families are travelling between Britain and Pakistan daily and they return having had wonderful holidays with family living there and return home. Yes, of course some women (and young men) have found themselves being coerced into forced marriages, but the girls here are 10 and 7, and prepubescent.

As I said. If this lady has well founded reasons to believe her daughter's husband is taking his family to Pakistan for coercive reasons, then she should inform the police. The children and their mother hold British passports and can look to the British government to protect them and even rescue them.

But so far all she has aired are vague ideas of what could happen based on racist rumours and a tittle tattle and a few tragic cases. Nothing specific about his actions, about any threats he has made, or the way he has behaved.

Perhaps he will do what she says, but nothing she has said on GN points to that. All one can say is if she has reason to believe he intends to go to Pakistan and stay there,with his children and her daughter does not know, or is opposed to this, then she should report it to the police, or at least speak to her local Citizen's Advice office about her fears.

Racism is more than just hate of another group. It also includes being prepared to accept gossip and rumour about any other ethnic group, whether Eastern Europeans, Africans or Pakistani, without investigation or proof.

I am a catholic of Irish origins and I can remember the rumours that floated around about catholics in Britain when I was a child, That we couldn't be trusted to defend Britain because our first loyalty was to the pope and if he told us not to fight a certain group opposed to Britain, any catholics in the forces would immediately down arms and refuse to fight. Ludicrous rumours, and not the worst, yet plenty of people believed them. I actually had a boyfriend who dropped me as soon as he realised my religion, because his father had told him he would throw him out of the house if he ever dated a catholic because they would not defend the country if the pope told them to. Coming from an army family, whose grandfather served in two world wars whose 7 sons served in the second, this kind of prejudice was offensive.

This lady's attitude is similar.

You do not have to be Pakistani or muslim to fulfill your three requirements rosecarmel

Women travel to and from Pakistan and Britain every day. There are plenty of ordinary Pakistani women living in Britain who talk casually of making trips home, of what it is like there, in the same way that you or I might talk about a trip to relatives living in parts of our country very different from where we reside.

If this lady actually knew well, had welcomed into her house and built the ordinary relationship with her SiL that most MiL's build she would know whether her fears were real or far-fetched. Her daughter has been with someone 10 years, married for several and has three grandchildren and she refers to him as a Palistani fellow !

I am trying to envisage describing my DiL as a Yorkshire woman as in my son married 'a Yorkshire woman' last year, after being together 10 years and I have two grand daughters. It is ridiculous, she is part of my family, I know her parents, we share family occasions, birthdays, etc.

There are plenty of families where religion is a contentious issue, between a main stream Christian and a fundamentalist, between atheist and a memeber of any religion.

As for the second one, by the time a man (or woman) for that matter get married both are likely to have had previous long-lasting relationships, which makes the final decision to commit to some one more complete and important.

Thus far nobody in this thread is speaking from personal experience regarding travel to Pakistan, particularly as a female-

The OPs daughter has argued with her husband about religion-

He was with another woman for a long time before marrying her daughter-

All 3 are red flags-

Most posters are not having this as a first thought though, rosenoir

MOnica have you not read the news recently....that the Police would not listen to those poor girls being raped and abused because they did not want to incite trouble in the community.

Of course almost ALL Muslims are law abiding and peaceful I do believe this.
but please do stop trying to make the OP's fears look like racism.
Why are you having a go at her?

we know nothing about their relationship.
perhaps OP is a racist. perhaps she is not I don't know.
from what she has said I just see a frightened woman.

yes why are we? It wasn't my first thought.
i was responding to the OP's anxiety and MOnica's assertion that Pakistan is no more lawless than the UK

My GP is from Pakistan and a Muslim, when he told me he was taking the family for a visit to his parents it never crossed my mind that he would abduct his children and not return.

Why are so many on here having this as a first thought, it has shocked me.

Norahbennette This really is getting ridiculous, there are over a million muslims in Britain. The proprotion involved in crime or terrorism is minute, well less than 1%. If you limit it just to Pakistanis, the number of ISIS terrorists who come from Pakistani is very small. The majority come from north africa and the horn of Africa, quite a number are of Afro-Caribbean and European origin.

Would you be equally worried if your SiL was Irish? The number of Irish people, on both sides belonging to nationalist and protestant paramilitaries was far higher, proportionately, than muslims involved with terrorism. Many more people were killed by Irish terrorists, Irish terrorists could be just as indiscriminate in their killing as any muslim terrorist. And the Irish troubles didn't end with the Good Friday agreement. There are still Irish terrorists active and planning bombins and killing.

Errant parents do not have to be muslim and Pakistani to take children on a family trip and and then abscond with them. When it happens the parent is as likely to be French or German or Australian as Pakistani.

I have never heard a grandparent before have a daughter who has been with her partner for over 10 years and is now married to them, who is not estranged from her mother, yet has a mother who speaks of her husband as if she hardly knows him and as if he and his family were some freaks from the zoo.

In a previous era I would say you were reading too many cheap thrillers, nowadays I would suggest you are reading too many right-wing racist social media.

The best thing you can do is welcome your SiL into your family, no matter what the neighbours think. Get to know him as a person, welcome him warmly into your house and life. Remember, he is the father of your grandchildren.

If you have any soundly based reasons to suspect his intentions for going to Pakistan, then talk to the police.

If there were priest in your town being prosecuted for raping children, you would have no worries at all because they would be under lock and key, and certainly no longer in your town. Howeveer, you probably do have paedophiles living in your street and quite a number in your town. Howeve as yet you do not know who they are because they have yet to be dicovered, and they are probably not Pakistanis but nice European people like you. Now there is something to worry you.

I am sorry you sound unpleasantly racist, and sound as if you move in circles that encourage you to be so.

The best way you can protect your grandchildren from all these stories that make every muslim a terrorist, and every visit to Pakistan as full of criminal meaning, is to go open armed to your SiL, welcome him into your home and family and make it clear that as your SiL is valued and loved as your DDs husband and the father of your grandchildren. Try and meet and be open to his family. Their opinion of you now is probably that you are a nasty racist woman, who holds them, their culture and religion in contempt. You have some hard work ahead of you.

I think the OP is being honest about her fears and should not be called racist.
I would be concerned as well.

there is no way the UK is as lawless as Pakistan. I am sorry Monica
"norahbennette you are living in a country every bit as lawless and violent as Pakistan"
but that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on GN.

Pakistan is a very lawless country....more so in the remote regions.

The attitude to women there is utterly shameful.
Do you not remember the girl who was shot for wanting to go to school? Her name was Malala,
Girls do as they are told.
They have no status.

It might be that this OP's Sil is all above board but also might be her mother's intuition.
Muslim men also are allowed to marry more than one woman....
There is a lot of corrupt marriages going on, to bring over relatives.
The girls are very young but the 10 year old is getting close to marriage age.

"Across all provinces generation after generation of children, especially girls, are locked out of education—and into poverty. In interviews for this report, girls talked again and again about their desire for education, their wish to “be someone,” and how these dreams had been crushed by being unable to study."

from .hrw.org/report/2018/11/12/shall-i-feed-my-daughter-or-educate-her/barriers-girls-education-pakistan

Always best to be safe. Maybe all will be well. I hope so but being cautious is allowed.
Calling you racist is like the police and social workers who would not listen to the young girls being abused and raped because it was by Pakistani men.

Perhaps you are, I don't care but I do understand a mother being anxious.

mmm..now norabennette from you recent posts am swaying towards you not thinking on the lines I originally thought. You ARE starting to sound more Racist rather than what I thought you were originally worried about.

I never said all were bad but I think it's perfectly reasonable to be scared when so Muslims have committed such horrible crimes in my country. That's before we even begin to mention the terrorist attacks.

Not all terrorists are Muslim either.

If there were priests in my home town being prosecuted for raping children, I certainly wouldn't let one of my grandchildren be around them!

By this reasoning, the Muslim men who are raping children in your area won’t be in Pakistan. So they should be much safer.