Veganism

I'm far from a vegan, in fact a proud omnivore, but you do seem to have been particularly hostile to your DD in her endeavours. Could you not have been a bit creative and made some vegan curries, casseroles, etc., to accommodate her wishes.

There was no hostility and I was trying to be supportive but I did have to explain the reality of living in a family . I simply do not have the money. I work long hours. Thanks to the government I will be doing that for sometime yet so I cant be home to cook special meals.

Can I also be clear here? Not all of us eat curries, stews or casseroles. In my house my these things are rareities. Curries never - I cant deal with spices. I cook meat and three veg. I grow a lot of vegetables in my garden and we have what I can pull out of the ground generally.

I was not trying to make her life hard. She didnt starve. There was plenty of plain home cooked and healthy food on the table for her and plenty of fruit . She could have carried on if she really wanted.

And why would you switch off the radiator in her room and take away her phone because she's interested in climate change

The radiator was using energy and creating CO2 and burning the earch according to ER . I have a perfectly good fire in the sitting room and she could join us there. She did not have to use her bedroom except to sleep. It does not have to be heated. My own bedroom isnt. It saves money and the planet.

A mobile phone uses lithium batteries which are expensive to extract and cause pollution of our lovely planet. Now I can live with the reality of that but as an ER advocate she had a respionsibility to realise that her phone was part of the problem. The same was true for her play station, her personal computer and several other gadgets.

I dont have a mobile phone by the way. We do have a second lap top which the rest of the family share. She was only being asked to be responsible and share like the rest of us are doing. MY CO2 footprint is very small and my DD uses more of it than the rest of us put together.

Aprilrose, your explanation 'I simply do not have the money' isn't logical at all. Meat is very expensive. Everyone should be able to choose their own diet (within reason) don't you think? There's no need to cook special meals either. You have the time to grow your own veg but can't change your set habits regarding food?

There can be no logical argument against adopting a healthy, considerate, planet and animal friendly way of eating

I agree with a healthy lifestyle. But I suspect we might not see the situation in the same way. But this is not what this thread is about.

aprilrose

I like the way you handled issues with your DD.
You responded with reality.
A lot of young wanting to be vegan is peer group pressure. They want to be like their friends

I don't agree that veganism is healthy. I was vegan for 3 years and it was harmful for me. We didn't know then that you have to buy B12 supplements. What kind of healthy diet is it that you need to buy vitamins
And I am allergic to yeast so cannot substitute with that.
Someone going vegan in their later years will probably be ok. You have passed your growing years for a start.

Aprilrose, your explanation 'I simply do not have the money' isn't logical at all. Meat is very expensive. Everyone should be able to choose their own diet (within reason) don't you think? There's no need to cook special meals either. You have the time to grow your own veg but can't change your set habits regarding food

No, on the whole I do not agree. I have to cook for my family. No one else is doing it. I cook the main meal and we all have a portion. Meat is not that expensive. My husband wants meat and veg when he comes in from his outdoor job. I like simple cooked meals which have meat on them.

Its part of the diet of my family. We do not have money and I do not have time to put different meals for different people on the table. I am not going out of my way for almond milk and vegan burgers etc. We all eat what there is and that is the end of it. I often eat what is there too or go without .

If DD wanted to be a vegan she had that option open but that she did not want to live on cabbage, carrots cauliflower and potato unless it was put into some special concoction was her problem.

She did do that and then changed hr mind because she was missing the bacon sandwiches on Saturday evening or the chicken dinner on Sunday lunchtime in fact. She thought we should join her so she would not be "tempted" by the food I served up. My OH was never going to be a veg only man!

When she is older and has her own money and cooks her own meals she can do as she pleases, although I am not sure that she is really into vegan life and such. It was a fad and it was very much school driven after some lessons and "eco club"

Pinkquartz, I disagree. Aprilrose should respect her daughter's wishes, rather than overreact and bully her. She really does sound like an awful parent (as she says herself).

Veganism can be healthy or unhealthy, just like any other diet. Those who don't regularly consume fortified cereals can take cyanocobalamin to ensure adequate B12 - easy peasy!

Sounds very quaint that family meals have to revolve around what the man of the house wants.

Surely to goodness the kids have a bit of a say!

Sounds very quaint that family meals have to revolve around what the man of the house wants

So what is wrong with that exactly? We are all supposed to be governed by the whims and fads of an 11 year old girl are we?

We are not all driven by feminism, liberalism and progressivism you know. Some of us still live in traditional homes with a mum and a dad who are married to each other and we still have traditional roles. I am not criticising anyone elses life choice or life style but please do not try to belittle mine by calling it quaint. I know lots of others who live the same way and very few ( to none in fact) who do it differently.

When I got married ( 25 years ago now as it happens) I had an agreement with my husband - spoken I accept but our agreement nonetheless, I would look after him ( we didnt have any children then) and the home and I would see to cooking, shopping and all the needs we had and I would be a " housewife" . He would work, he would be the bread winner, the main source of income and he would work his backside off to keep that promise over the years I can asure you! I had to go out to work because of changes in the economy beyond our control . He is still the main breadwinner. I would never demean him by suggesting his role is not important.

Children have to be looked after and taken care of. They are not adults They cannot make adult decisions. I do not pander to my DD's whims so I am a bad parent? If however, my DD came home saying she was going to eat nothing but sugar and chocolate and cakes because those foods contain energy, most would praise me for refusing to pander to her. Veganism isnt a diet for an 11 or 12 year old growing child. Thats my bottom line. I cannot afford it is my bottom line. I see no reason why we have to inulge the whims of children in this way. She can do what she wants when she is fully grown , until then her health and seeing her well fed and nurished are my responsibilities.

Besides, I didnt stop her eating only veg and fruit. She just didnt fancy it when she had to do it for real.

Oh well, I’m with you aprilrose. We were very hard up when the children were small and what was on the table was what there was. If you really didn’t like it there was bread. There wasn’t much that they wouldn’t eat!
I had friends who cooked three or four different things for a family meal to cater for individual tastes. What they got was increasingly fussy eaters.

And yes, yes, if you really believe in the principles of ER then it has to start with you , the individual making sacrifices.

You are still talking rubbish Aprilrose. How can you afford meat - but not vegan foods? Impossible! You seem to view current trends as fads. Very quaint and old fashioned. How can a responsible parent have so very little concern for saving the planet?

Just thinking Hetty, but surely aprilrose is doing quite a lot of environmentally friendly things. Not heating bedrooms, eating veg that she grows and cooking just one meal for everyone as opposed to different meals for different family members. The fuel used in catering for different preferences would be wasteful, wouldn’t it?

And I have found that since more people have become vegan the price of “vegan” foods has shot up. I used to be able to make a nutritious lentil or split pea soup for under 50p. Now lentils are almost £2.00 a pack. I don’t think it’s a cheaper option at all.

Eglantine, Aprilrose took extreme steps to 'set up failure' for her daughter's attempts at environmental awareness and veganism, rather than empathise or attempt to meet her needs. She seems to be very resistant to change.

I really dislike the controlling parenting style, having had much experience of dealing with the consequences in my teaching career.

I don't know where you shop, but dry red or brown lentils are still 99p for 500g in my local Indian shop. Large packs work out cheaper. Supermarkets, meanwhile, have just hiked up prices to make a quick profit.

I often buy tins of green lentils (60p in Sainsbury's) to make cottage pie - a whole lot cheaper than meat.

I've noticed a whole new range of (expensive, unnecessary) vegan fast foods appearing recently, though - again, shops taking advantage. They are trying to compensate for the downturn in their profitable lines - of course.

blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2017/06/signs-of-controlling-parenting/

Is meat expensive? I buy mince at three for £9.00. I can divide those up into three out of each pack - thats three meals from a mince pack which has cost me £3 - so £ for each meal. That meal serves us all. I can do the same with cubed steak. Pork chops cost me £2.00. There were six chops in the pack. - two meals worth at 50p for the meal. Potatoes I grow, cabbage, carrots, cauliflower etc. I grow.

Tonight we will be having fish. It cost nothing other than my OH's time catching it off the pier. This is his pastime with his friend. They bring back their catch. Someone amongst the group he fishes with will gut and fillet the fish ( he knows the job having worked in a fish mongers and a processing factory. I freeze it and we have fish dinners (for free) with chips from my potatoes .

I grow leeks. If I buy a chicken (again £3.00) and cook it for Sunday lunch, we can usually get sandwiches off it on the evening and I can use the rest to make a chicken and leek pie ( potato covered) for the following week. Again, probably no more than a £ a meal ( that feeds us all).

Why would I want to buy lentils or whatever that we really do not like? You are really demanding here that I change my lifestyle to suit your morality.

I actually see eating meat as saving animals not destroying them. After all nothing converts upland pastures to food source better than a cow or a sheep.

They can also provide leather for shoes, milk for drinks and wool for clothing and insulation of houses etc. I accept there is an issue around slaughter and I do not like some religious practices of same. I do source most of my meat from a butcher not using those practices. I source my meat locally and I know it is well husbanded and treated well in life and I thank it for what it gives us. The butcher uses humane methods as far as possible.

Now, there is the morality issue and the saving the planet issue but those are not arguments for this thread.

I could offer an argument for how veganism actually destroys that it sets out to save and how it too might cost the earth in pollution and transport around the world.

But that is not for this thread. At a practical level I have to live. I have to care for my family. It would not do for us all to be the same. I am not criticising any lifestyle. I accept some want to be vegan or vegitarian or whatever but I am not judging them. It is not how I live or want to live. When you live as a family it is the role of parent to make the decisions and not be led by the dictats of offspring.

If DD wants to be a vegan, she can be, she just has to select her food from that provided un til she can provide her own. I do not see that as being unsupportive or bullying.

I am sorry hetty but I think you are going a tad to far in your assumptions in suggesting I am a controlling and abusive parent based on one scenario where I do not agree with your principles of veganism.

cant we accept that we have different ideas about what foods we eat? Why do you need to try and devalue m e as a person by alleging things you know nothing of?

Oh dear! None so blind as won't see, none so deaf as won't hear.

To use an old cliche, "The mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open"

Sadly, some minds just won't open.

I'm quite happy to accept we have different ideas, Aprilrose. It's a shame you can't allow the same for your own daughter, though.

As for the original question, Bbarb, there is no brainwashing. Children are presented with the facts, that's all. I think perhaps our own mothers, post-war, were very much influenced by the meat marketing board and dairy industry. Of course, the interests of farmers were represented by them so the 'nutritional advice' was skewed at the time.

I have to ask hetty. If one of your children had said they wanted you to provide them with a meat based meal, seperate from what the family were eating, would you have done it?

It’s just a bit illogical to call aprilrose controlling, if your family had to eat vegan because that’s what you believe.

You might say they didn’t want to, but did they really ever have a choice?

I just wonder about the logic of your argument.....

It is no preblem for a carnivore to eat a vegan meal. Vegetables are healthy and as far as I know carnivores have no ideological objections to eating vegetables.

Not ideological. But not everyone likes a lot of vegetables. I know more than one person who only likes one or two.
So tomade to eat a veggie meal would be yuck!

Add in bean and nut allergies and the increase in vegan cuisine poses a real problem if you’re eating out.

If we’re talking of being controlling, like hetty was, then forcing your child to eat a meal they hate because of the parents principles is pretty controlling.

If we’re talking of being controlling, like hetty was, then forcing your child to eat a meal they hate because of the parents principles is pretty controlling

Can we be clear here . I did not force my DD to eat anything. There were plenty of vegetables on the table at all times. I simply said I was not going to provide nut cutlets, vegi burgers or quorn etc. as it was added expense and no one else wanted to be vegan. It was a choice.

If DD did not want to eat meat she could have her fill of all the veg available. She decided after trying it for two weeks that she didnt want to continue the veg diet anymore. I didnt make her do anything. I supher as far as I could in her choices.

aprilrose, I think you are being given an unnecessarily hard time on this thread. You have made your principles clear and you stand by them. You clearly know how to live within your means and I commend you for this. I think your robust approach to your parenting responsibilities is refreshing and reminds me a bit of my maternal grandmother who raised twelve children in a 3 bedroom house with not much money to go round. She too was a very good homemaker.

Sorry, I was answering variants post that it’s fine for people who like a meat based to meal to be given a vegetarian one, even though they may not want it or like to eat a plant based meal.

If veggies shouldn’t be forced to eat meat why should meat eaters have to eat veggie.