Do we still set higher standards for women?

*main carer

women are by far the best carers
No. This is what we are TRAINED to do. Society is full of people telling us this. You are just regurgitating dominant ideology. I'm not a natural mother. I hated being at home with children. I'm a natural career woman.

make your decision happily not grudgingly
Hard to do when men and society tell us 'women are by far the best carers' when we want more.

employers expect men to put in a full days work
Then MEN should take different jobs. MY job expects me to put in a full day. In the UK, my day was often 7am to 9pm. Even if you are not the main career, that is not compatible with any kind of work-life balance. It certainly isn't exclusive to men.

You say women need to do more to earn real equality. MEN need to stop using excuses for not promoting the equality of the sexes. They need to stop assuming a caring role is a biological one. It isn't. They need to stop buying into patriarchy. It isn't some kind of natural system. It was created for the benefit of men and patrilineage. They take an equal part in the procreation process. They now need to take an equal part in the raising of the children they create.

David, you're not entering into debate. You are dictating the OLD system. You are making excuses.

Well legally they dont, whather culturally they do is another matter.

Employers expect whoever is employed in the role to do a full days work, they dont have different expectations of men and women.

I actually saw Grandad's post late last night and considered responding then but I decided to "sleep on it" and see if it looked any better in the morning. I've looked. And it doesn't. It's one of the most ill informed, misogynistic posts I've ever seen him be the author of. How can he not know that, at the end of WW2, when men returned to the UK to take up their positions in the factories and shops that they'd left behind; women were forced out of those roles that they had so ably occupied throughout the war. Those women were told to get back to their homes and kitchens, look after their menfolk and children and leave the jobs for the men. And they did. It caused depression and mental ill health for millions of women who, for the first time ever, had had a taste of independence and financial freedom.

I'm staggered that someone with Grandads usual eloquence is so ignorant of WW2 history.

Of course there are part time jobs in the economy but they are not career jobs, employers expect men to put in a full days work, if you are are a car mechanic, truck driver or an architect you are expected to work a full day. It’s up to the couple to decide who does less.

Davidh I am sorry but you appear to be talking about a time long gone. Of course part time jobs and school jobs are available to men why on earth wouldn't they be.

When a couple decide to have a family the realistic option is that one of them is going to have to take a step back from their career. Unless they are both very high earners it is not going to work with both trying to work full time, it is up to the couple to decide who works less. If neither are willing to take a step back they should not have a family, maybe men should take on more childcare, on the other hand women are by far the best carers and there are plenty of part time of school hours work for women, many of those options don’t exist for men

Very few can “have it all”, changes have to be made if you want children, whatever you decide, be realistic, children take time to care for, make your decision happily not grudgingly. One of my daughters is the higher earner, her husband is a carpenter/builder with his workshop at home, it’s easy for him pick the kids up or look after them if they are off school, that works well.

I have zero sympathy for couples who think they can both have demanding full time jobs and care for children properly, something has to give.

It's about giving up power and that's never easy. There is an example of it on here. Grandad you are stating that there has been little evidence of the fight for womens rights recently and that discussion on social media forums will not help. You are wrong and know very little about current campaigns for womens rights. As I have already stated numerous changes in womens rights started on mumsnet, they include let toys be toys (campaign against sexist stereotypes) campaign for maintaining single sex places and campaign for legislation around murder by rough sex (We dont consent to this started on mumsnet).
In the period you mentioned women established domestic violence shelters, (they established them for women then went on to set up one for men) campaigned and won for rape to be made illegal in marriage, campaigned for abortion laws, campaigned against FGM, fought to change the law around street harassment. It's unfair and inaccurate to state there was no evidence of a fight for womans rights, you just weren't interested in it and that's fine, I dont particularly expect you to be. But please dont say those women are doing nothing.

Wow, Grandad, that’s a fine bit of victim-blaming! It’s women’s own fault that the patriarchy keeps them screwed down? That’s utter nonsense about post-war women. Many were not happy to have to leave their jobs at all. They had enjoyed that freedom but then they were told to budge up to allow the men back in. Women had no rights to keep their job, they could be sacked just like that.

Look at the many women who had to leave their jobs either because they had the temerity to marry or have a child. No man that I’m aware of has ever had to do that. . Women also had few rights in other areas. They were shunned if they had a child out of wedlock. They were expected to endure domestic abuse, because they must have made their man do it. If they walked out of their marriage because of said abuse, they were deemed to have abandoned any children and custody was given to the father, however unfit. Women have fought long and hard to overcome such hurdles and any decent man today should be right behind the women who want what men have.

Where women see injustice against them it is for women to organise and fight that injustice. However, throughout the second half of the last century and the first nineteen years of this century we have seen scant evidence of such organisation and fight.

What we all witness is singular unorganised protest on social media forums such as this which will never change anything.

Women don't decide to start families. Men and women decide together.

Don't place the blame of patriarchal society solely at the feet of women. Men keep women controlled by not pulling their weight domestically.

I had children. And a husband who thought his job was more important than mine. Who didn't do an equal share of childcare or housework.

20 years ago, you would have assumed I was one of the 90% because a man didn't pull his weight and I was trapped because of it.

Your attitude is sexist.

Gagajo you are one of the 10% you made your choices any other woman could do the same, most don’t. They choose to have children or caring responsibilities, they chose to have a relationship as well. Maybe some regret the choices they made but it’s their responsibility,.

God help the woman who wears a dress showing a shoulder to work.

Or the woman who wears leather trousers to work; or a dress that's deemed to be too short, even though she's actually on holiday.

Only just seen this thread, and not yet read all of it, which I’m about to do. However I must say straight away that I absolutely think that higher standards are expected of women than of men, in pretty much every sphere of life. Now I’ll read the whole thread through.

Gagaji exactly!!

God help the woman who wears a dress showing a shoulder to work.

Women are often the most vicious about other women as well.

SueDonim, Galaxy, in regards to both of your above posts, men being prepared to more readily work away from home and women carrying out an unequal part of the "home chores" is simply because of long-standing social attitudes still in acceptance by both genders even in today's world of legislated equality.

I feel that the above situation is very slowly changing with men now more often becoming the stay at home main family carer while the female partner becomes the main financial contributor by way of greater income access.

However, the above is still the exception in our society rather than the rule due to, as stated, social attitude acceptance in both genders.

If forum members think back, throughout the second world war women carried out all the occupations normally worked by men while they were way in armed service. In truth, Britain was almost entirely maintained as a working entity by women.

At the conclusion of that war, all those occupations were handed back to those returning men without any protest whatsoever by the women who had held those jobs throughout the war years.

The above situation of male dominance both in employment and home circumstance was maintained with a few exceptions until labour and skill shortages of the late nineteen eighties and nineties gave women better opportunities in the workplace and through that somewhat better equality in the home.

In all the above, I would ask, who holds greater fault for the inequality we still all witness in our society. Was it the men who were so easily given back the jobs that had been carried out by women on their return home at the conclusion of the second world war, or was it the fault of the women who handed over that employment and single home governance at that time without protest. In that, it would seem women have continued to accept that unequal situation ever since that time by way of accepting long standing social stances.

It can be argued that the period from 1945 until 1998 when the Human Rights Act came into being was the weakest period in the women's fight for equality than had been for over one hundred years previous.

The 2010 Equality Act then gave women total legislative parity with their male counterparts, but still we all witness everyday inequality and acceptance of that in the social behaviours of both genders.

Funny that David, I have lived and worked overseas on my own in China, Spain, the US and now Switzerland. Reason being I don't have family responsibility.

Until men step up and share the family burden, women can't be footloose.

Time away from home, women have a choice, it depends on their career choice, a good example is airline employees. Around 5% of airline pilots are women and there are a great many cabin crew who also are away a lot. In a similar way long distance truck drivers spend many nights away, those women that do drive trucks usually want to get home to their own beds each night. I would guess that no more than 10% of women would choose a job that meant a lot of nights away.

Women in general are far less confident traveling on their own they feel insecure, many will travel with a friend/partner or a group, solo, again I would bet on 10%.

No I am not talking about employment practises or law. The power they have to give up in order to be an equal partner. So they have to sacrifice the trip away to be with their children, they have to take equal share at home, they have to do the 'wifework'.

Grandad said:- However, it seems that men very much more readily and easily commit to being away from home in the course of their employment, while women are far more likely to turn down such working even when that means turning away upward opportunity in their employment.

Why do you think that is, Grandad?

Galaxy, in regard to your post @
18:23 today, employers could not in any way force male employees to give up anything to favour female employees.

The Equality Act 2010 lays out as its primary purpose that it is illegal to discriminate against any person on the grounds of Race, Religious belief, Sexual preference and Gender.

Therefore whether in employment or any other walk of life gender discrimination operates against the above legislation.

I dont think it's really an employer issue, more that to change things men have to give up some of the 'power' they have and that's a hard thing to do. I may be about to tempt fate but this has been a really interesting thoughtful thread, I think its drifted from the ops original question but I am glad she started it.