Do we still set higher standards for women?

I feel that with many of the above posts asserting that "men should do this" or "men should do that" demonstrates comprehensively that women's equality campaigns carried out over many decades have failed.

What on earth does this even mean?

Are you advocating that men shouldn’t do half the childcare and house work?

That women should have a full career, take all the time off for sick children, and do all housework/child care?

Women can’t do all the work for equality, men need to do theirs as well.

I think if your only aim was for womens progress in the career market to improve, then yes it would benefit women to stop having children.

We, as women, started working for equality a long time ago. We are not there yet. The law says one thing, society says another.

We will get there. We will. It is a very slow change, from generation to generation. But we are not there yet

Grandad1943 I don't think that is a ridiculous statement at all. The fact is that women still take responsibility for the majority of housework and child care. Now if that is partly because of the way they were brought up, or the expectations of society, there is still also the fact that men often do not step up because, let's face facts, it's hard work. 100 years ago a woman called Lisbeth Simm wrote a column where she said that one reason women didn't attend political meetings was because men didn't do their share of the house work. Germaine Greer once advocated giving young men vasectomies after they had stored sperm in a sperm bank. It would end unwanted children and make men realise their responsibilities. Women have been suggesting solutions for a long time but they are still usually the ones left holding the baby and men pursue the lives they had before they were fathers.

GagaJo quote [If men can't take half the responsibility, they should stop having children.] End quote.

What a rediculas statement for any women to make. When it comes to making children it takes two to make a bargain.

I feel that with many of the above posts asserting that "men should do this" or "men should do that" demonstrates comprehensively that women's equality campaigns carried out over many decades have failed.

What forum members who state such as the above are acknowledging is that long-held stances and prejudice are still retained and entrenched within our society.

I would not necessarily subscribe to many of the anti-male views expressed in this thread and in that believe that much has changed in regards to equality attitudes in Britain.

However, the fact that women still hold such views in itself demonstrates , as stated, that women's rights and equality campaigns have failed and may well continue to fail without radical change.

The above should now be the main theme of in this thread as reciting the same arguments time and time again changes nothing. I feel that Thrisher and myself have through our post indicated how those campaigns could be made more effective.

quizqueen Men should do their share! This isn't the dark ages. Women have full-time careers. They don't have a biological responsibility to drop their life every time a child is ill. Men need to step up.

If men can't take half the responsibility, they should stop having children.

"Saying a pregnant women is not likely to get the job compared to a bloke is ridiculous. Of course, the attendance of the woman would be more likely to be unreliable so why wouldn't the bloke be chosen. "

Because job positions are ideally filled based on the skills of the person, not the gender and social obligations imposed by society

This comment is the perfect example of chauvinist attitude in the world now - no wonder birth rates are falling

"If women want to be equal in the workplace then they have to be prepared to do the job equal to the men in all respects"
Why can't father's take time off work to take care of his sick kid? Support his sick wife?
It is men who have to step up, not women

As you are so keen on equal responsibility.

Perhaps the answer quizqueen is that men take an equal role in the children they produce. Why would a man not be the one to take time off.

quizqueen can men not take time off when children are ill? Equality means sharing responsibility.
Grandad1943 I thought you would know about all the women in Unison and the campaigns they support www.unison.org.uk/about/what-we-do/fairness-equality/women/key-issues/

Saying a pregnant women is not likely to get the job compared to a bloke is ridiculous. Of course, the attendance of the woman would be more likely to be unreliable so why wouldn't the bloke be chosen. As long as women expect to have time off when kids are ill or have some school thing to attend, as a priority, then why wouldn't a company chose the man. If women want to be equal in the workplace then they have to be prepared to do the job equal to the men in all respects. That's what equality means, not to say I want equal pay and equal responsibility but want to be able to have time off whenever.

hmmGood grief terrible grammar/spelling in that post. Cant even blame the wine.

Grandad the campaign to remain in the EU was a failure, I am not sure women want to emulate it The campaigns I mentioned abortion rights, rape within marriage, street harassment, were all successful. I am afraid I dont think numbers on streets is necessary indicitative of any kind of success.
Nothing to do with this thread but it is interesting how different companies are reacting to the coronavirus, we are still using our office as normal, however as our job is mostly out in the community it probably makes no difference.
As for women saying women have slept their way to the top, women can be misogynistic too, ts of no surprise to any of us involved in womens rights, it's easier for many people not to challenge the status quo .

Grandad I'm not meaning to goad or anything, but while I respect your claim that you have always been supportive of women's rights and equality issues, I sometimes feel you are not always supportive of women. By which I mean that your criticism of women's failure to bring matters more to the fore, seems not to understand that the social pressures on women, particularly in their caring roles, has meant it is not always so easy to get organised in the same way as men. For example think back to the criticism the Greenham Common demonstrators received. If they went and left their children at home they were bad mothers, if they took young children with them they were bad mothers. The losing of their jobs after the 2nd World War was told to women as their patriotic duty. Who after 6 years of war would want to be declared unpatriotic? Especially as when they had been conscripted to work in the factories etc that too was their patriotic duty. It really shouldn't be a case of whoever shouts loudest is right and gets what they want. Surely justice should be based on right not might?

Galaxy in regard to your post @10:21 today I feel that I have always been very supportive of women's rights and equality issues. What I have been critical of is that women themselves have not brought the matter more to the fore than has been achieved over many decades.

By example to the above, we all witnessed just last year how the campaign for Britain to remain within the European Union brought more than a million people onto the streets of London in one demonstration.

In the above, women's equality is a much more long-standing issue that belongs at the heart of how our nation views and treats entrenched attitudes and Prejudice. However, never have we seen such demonstrations as sited above on the streets of our cities in support of women's Equality. That states, I feel, that the campaign over many years has not been organised in such a way as to maximise to the effect it should have.

Galaxy, you have asked of me several questions in this thread which I hope you feel I have answered in a comprehensive manner, if not always in agreement with yourself. Therefore can I ask a direct question of you which I hope you will respond to in the same manner as I have?

The above question being, do you condemn the post and forum member who has inferred in this thread and many others that Jenny Formby gained her career promotions to the very top of the Labour movement by way of "jumping into bed" with her male workplace superiors?

I have placed in this thread all the facts in regard to Formby's career, and they demonstrate very comprehensively, I believe, that the allegations that forum member has made are entirely false.

By the way Galaxy, I wish to thank you for the question you asked of me today. I am with others in our Somerset office, but as from Monday due to the coronavirus outbreak, many of the Administration staff will be working from home. There is a very sad and worried atmosphere here today with computers etc being moved out. At least your post has taken my mind off of all that along with two others I have shown this thread too.

We all very much respect your posts, tenacity and "hang in there style". Many thanks.

Are you saying you are supportive of womens rights grandad, because you have spent quite a lot of time saying we have achieved nothing. It's strange that women on this thread dont find that particularly supportive.

I like this little factoid just remember that everything Fred Astaire did, Ginger Rodgers did backwards and wearing high heals

Well said trisher, as you have stated there are many on Gransnet that will in no way support a woman who in her career has risen to the very top in an environment totally dominated by men in her early employment.

A woman who has "walked the walk" rather than "talk the talk"

Unsurprisingly for this forum, that lack of support has been demonstrated on a thread entitled "Do we still set higher standards for women"

Anyway, I am off to the office where there are also women who have to physically challenge an often male-dominated environment on a daily bases in the course of their work by way of going into other companies.

Of course I condemn the remarks about Jennie Formby and how she only managed to progress through sleeping with a man but sadly there are many on GN who won't. Don't have time to write more off out to sing and protest about the patriachy with lots of other women.

Many thanks Ilovecheese for condemning the post(s) that indicated Jenny Formby achieved her career accomplishments by "casually jumping into bed" with her male workplace superiors.

It is a great pity that more forum members have not joined you in that condemnation especially when Formby has been a tremendous supporter of women's rights, justice and equality throughout her working life.

I believe the above demonstrates that in the view of a number of forum members condemnation of gender is placed above condemnation of substance in posts.

I will repost the link to Formby speaking on women's equality.
Link begins here:- labourlist.org/2018/03/jennie-formby-we-must-do-better-for-women/

Do any of those who have talked about womens rights know why there isn't a feminism forum on GN. Is there just not enough interest?

I agree with Grandad1943 that implying that Jenny Formby only achieved her success by sleeping with a man, is a horrible thing to say by a woman against another woman.

No, I don't want to get the noose out but accuracy is important - you're usually accurate!

It's ok, Grandad!!

She is obviously a very bright and ambitious woman.

Actually, leaving school with no qualifications at all does not preclude someone reaching the top either, but she did do well at school.