To think too much is expected of teachers these days

My daughter is a secondary school teacher (and manager). Several days a week she is on duty, straight to lessons, five hours of intense teaching, straight on to another duty and on Friday, detention after school. She works and works and is an amazing teacher and people manager. It’s a hard job, very data driven these days and currently assessing and documenting endless evidence for the non exams for the poor COVID restricted exam year kids. She’s for two small people of her own. I worked in business all my life and despite many long nights and weekend work I can’t remember such an awful working environment where you don’t get to get a drink, lunch and visit the loo and people just say “well they get the holidays”. Thank god they do or we would not have a teaching profession. I could say a lot more about how it works now and how education under Gove was put back decades. Teachers have become a target for parents and the media, I am always encouraging my child to leave as it’s an unpleasant environment to work in. She loves the kids though and feels responsible for them so won’t.

I think teachers should concentrate more on teaching school subjects, rather than all these extra ‘chores’ which should be dealt with by trained professionals. If the police can go into schools to warn children about drugs etc, why can’t social workers, and other professionals do the same and leave the teachers to get on with teaching?

I agree with Eazybe.
Special schools are there for a reason. If a child has a difficulty or disability then there are experts within Special schools - use them. There is absolutely no advantage to the child if a ‘do gooder’ is in the mainstream classroom.
The olden times did have some practices that would be shunned by today’s parents but - we have thrown out the baby with the bath water. Too many adults in the classroom. Teaching assistants? Why?
Classroom support staff? Why?
121 support? Why?
Only 1 teacher with mainstream pupils (not students) if children have an issue then that’s why we have specialist schools (special schools)
Also how can we expect children to keep the rules when many parents don’t comply with school rules.

Oh midgey you are SO right, bloody Gove and his useless ideas and a cabinet of Elton and Harrow educated idiots who have literally NOT the foggiest idea what a bog standard comprehensive is about

It is always a question of funding, who`s budget pays for specialist additional staff? Teachers have a hard job but so do people like social workers etc. Education is so important but I would hope someone working with a child 5 days a week might spot something amiss.

Uk teachers are often under qualified and over tested. Compare our system to that in Finland - which actually spends less per child on education - , the teachers there are educated to at least a Masters level, but are then trusted to be good at their job without continual assessment.
It would take ages to outline their system here, but it is interesting to research it.
I was a teacher before I had my children, and when I found myself at the school gates as a parent I was shocked at how many would undermine the teachers in front of their children. No wonder some children have no respect for teachers, if their parents don’t. Just a thought.

My husband and I are both retired secondary school teachers teaching over 30 years each and finished in 2005 and then things were changing fast and neither of us were that sad to go as more and more was expected and often working 90 hour weeks. I had class sizes of up to 36 and even 20 in A level classes for maths. A break was a luxury and I worked through lunch hours to help children who had problems or who had been absent. No wonder we felt burned out . How I managed full time work with a child and a dog and 4 cats I have no idea now.
Primary school friends seemed even worse off.
My daughter in law trained to teach earlier years after being an accountant and lasted just 2 years in the job ( I think the average now may be as little as 5 years) as it seemed impossible.
Then over the pandemic year teachers have been expected to be saints who juggle their own families with face to face and online teaching simultaneously! And for little thanks and not that good wages.
A friend's daughter is a music teacher not allowed to use instruments or do singing .... and the school no longer uses the staffroom to gain extra teaching space.
We ask far too much and polititians are often hyper critical of the fantastic job done by so many.

Lots of mothers didn't work back in the 50's and 60's and so had more time and energy to talk to and play with their children, cook proper meals and teach children basic life skills.

I am not suggesting we should return to that because many mothers were also totally financially dependent on their husbands and did not have the opportunity to work outside the home/pursue a career, and feel like fully involved and independent members of society.

I do think, though, that there should be much more emphasis on work/life balance and, to achieve that, working hours for both men and women reduced and made more flexible. Of course, people will say that we can't afford to reduce working hours but years ago people worked six or six and a half day weeks and had few or no holidays. The whole world didn't fall apart when this changed. I believe it has been discovered that workers are only able to maintain alertness and focus for a certain number of hours and then their productivity tails off.

I do think that, as things currently stand, teachers are expected to make up the shortfall for all sorts of issues that could have been addressed more naturally within the family if the family was not so exhausted working long hours and trying to fit in domestic duties in the short time available to them at the end of their working day.

Absolutely , Nancat,
I work with 3 primary schools in a Director/Governor capacity , and we have been forced to accept that some children arrive at age 4 still wearing nappies. Yet another job for the teachers/teaching assistants to deal with.

@LovelyLady. Sorry, but I don’t agree. The ‘special schools’ of my day didn’t provide any education - they were there to keep the kids occupied until they became someone else’s responsibility. Segregation for disabled children is most definitely not the answer - integration with proper support is much better, both for the disabled child and their able bodied peers, who will learn that not everyone is the same, and disabled doesn’t mean inferior.

teachers are trained to teach. No child should be allowed to start primary school if they are not toilet trained at the age of five - this is a task for parents, not teachers ! Teachers alraeady have more than enough to do as qualified professionals.

Education is a lottery, even among the public schools. I privately tutored several kids over the years who went to fee paying schools simply because they were in classes where the teacher didn't have the time or inclination to help them and as day pupils they had home to go to. Children as we have just seen during lock down are a cheap commodity as far as government is concerned. The kids are also subject to every political/moral/social and religious fad that comes along as are their teachers. The funny thing is by the end of their schooling all most kids want are good grades and good friends.

A teacher teaches they are not managers out with the classroom.
Leave the teacher to be in the classroom. All this diluting their sill is what’s causing the prob.
School manager is not a role for our teachers. Special needs is not a role for mainstream teachers. If a child needs specialist input then that’s why we have specialist schools. Let teachers get on with their jobs.
If a child is at school and still in nappies, Social Services will be notified, this is neglect unless there’s a medical reason for wearing a nappy. Either way it’s a case for a specialist school. Our classrooms are overcrowded with adults - 1 adult in the class and that is the teacher.

My five year old granddaughter, with eyes like saucers, about a new girl in her class “Grandma - May wears a nappy and SHE’S NOT EVEN A BABY!”

The only child I knew who wore nappies in one of my children's classes in mainstream school had special needs that were not obvious and later attended a special school. I think you need to be very careful about what you are suggesting and posting as it discrimination and segregation of those with disabilities, even children, is illegal in the UK.

The Special schools I worked in in the 70s and 80s were absolutely wonderful. The staff were devoted to the pupils. Some even had children home for weekends and holidays to give parents a break. There certainly was education beyond 'babysitting'. The class teachers worked hard to provide an education for quite a disparate group of children who were disabled by a range of sensory and physical problems. Care staff looked after their physical care. Physios and Speech and Language therapists worked alongside the classroom staff.
I'm sure it was very expensive of course. I continued to work in this field and met some of the children as adults. I wondered at times if all our collective efforts were worthwhile but reckon the children might have been even worse off without us. These were children with severe and profound conditions. I can't imagine how they could have fitted in a mainstream class.

LovelyLady who is the dogooder in the classroom you refer to in your previous post.
The old system - didn't work 1 teacher 39 kids - so many were left behind and left with no confidence in themselves feeling thick.
Every child matters.
Yes there is a place for some children to need a specialist school but not all children with SEN need to be segregated.
Inclusion in school leads to inclusion in society.
Maybe children didn't turn up in nappies years ago but many came stinking of pee because they were unwashed, living in poverty, in fear and hadn't been toilet trained.
This golden age of education people are quoting is a myth. It wasn't the experience for everyone.

Aveline, most children who attend special school now are children with severe or profound disabilities who cannot cope in mainstream schools. All children whatever their needs or disabilities are allowed access to mainstream school and that is how it should be. Did you know children with down syndrome were not allowed to go to mainstream school until 1981.

It is one thing talking about funding and how children's needs are or could be met better, it is quite another to start excluding children with disabilities and 'sending them away'

Pammiel, yes I agree that was in our time. Now it’s a different generation and the Specialist Schools try to address the individuals specific need to get them back to mainstream school. No mainstream child should be held back by an intrusion of support staff who are there to support a needy children.
I went to see my grandchildren’s class as it was parents/grandparents morning.
What a shock - class of 18 pupils.
4 adults were there supporting the children. What a confusing organisation.
I totally agree children must be in mainstream education but not to the detriment of others. Yes it teaches children to be caring and understand but it’s holding the mainstream children back. I want to be kind but it’s not helping our children.
Times have changed but not for the better.

Nvella

My five year old granddaughter, with eyes like saucers, about a new girl in her class “Grandma - May wears a nappy and SHE’S NOT EVEN A BABY!”

And? I expect you said maybe the poor girl has an illness or hasn't got parents as good as yours who have looked after her like yours have you. Or did you just let DGD feel like this child is odd because she has an illness or has not been parented properly.
The answer to that says more about you than the poor child in a nappy.

I want to be kind

Seems somewhat impossible though

After visiting a special school for teenagers with both physical and behaviour etc problems I am now very much in favour of children with disabilities not being put in mainstream schools.
During a group discussion every single one of 15 children said they were much happier in the special school with smaller classes, good facilities and they had friends. As everyone had some type of disability they were no longer the odd child who nobody wanted to talk to or play with. No longer the child who was never invited to birthday parties or the one the parents avoided.
It was a private school for wealthy parents but most had attended mainstream local junior schools and were very unhappy there.
Council run ones were closed to save money not for the good of the children

Riggie

I trained to teach in the 1970s. We had an overview of (some) special needs and teach sex ed. We also kept eyes open for any other needs the kids might have. There was no army of teaching assistants to help us, and large classes were normal. Spending our evenings and holidays preparing work was normal as were lunchbreaks on duty, doing clubs, or cranking the banda machine to print off those worksheets!

So while I know current teachers have a lot of paperwork to do, so I don't think their workload is so different.

Sorry Riggie but I taught secondary core the 1970s and in 2010s, and the workload has changed massively. OFSTED casts a long shadow, and there are so many managers in schools trying to catch the teacher out. In the 70s a teacher could shout the door and have total autonomy, now any one of a dozen people can come into your room, and afterwards rip your lesson apart. Teaching was hard work in the 1970s, but in 2010s it just relentlessly dragged you down. Class sizes in core Y7-13, much the same, except maybe bigger now in A level.
I also worked in a London special school when I was young, and it was tough. An excellent former colleague works in a local one now, and the stories of her daily work are horrific. (Most of the special schools I knew were sold off, and those pupils placed in mainstream.)

growstuff

EllanVannin

Yes,*MerylStreep*, at least in the 50's I left school able to spell and string a sentence together. Half the kids today can't even feed themselves when they start school let alone spell when they leave.
Perhaps tough love was the way to go in the 50's !

What utter rot!

Absolutely!

LovelyLady i think you should get yourself a new user name.