Was nursing care better in the 'old days'

I think a "third level degree" is what you get after successful tertiary education i.e at a university.

They need a centralised IT system, that's for sure

It's been interesting hearing from those in the heat of the pandemic about how they have had to override some of the systems. They simply couldn't wait for a decision made here and something signed off elsewhere.

This should be looked at (quickly not a five-year project) to see how the hierarchies could be broken down. It's years since we heard about businesses flattening their structure but the NHS, civil service, the armed services and education seem to have been bypassed by this. It would not be a panacea but we do know that communication is generally better in flatter organisations, making it easier and quicker to make decisions.

I think some of this is the reason why those on the right, who have no real knowledge of the workings of these very large organisations, want them to mimic a commercial enterprise - which they aren't. Making them commercial in order to flatten them seems to be putting the cart before the horse for no good reason.

Pre-Covid nurses were being asked to go above and beyond, extra admin, doing jobs previously done by doctors, covering for absent colleagues etc.
We are short of 40 thousand nurses in a pandemic, with a govt buying inadequate PPE at vastly inflated prices and nurses having to wear masks for ten hours at a time.
There is no time to chat, give emotional support, pastoral care. Don't blame the nurses, blame the lack of money, the volume of tasks that need to be completed and that trained professionals have been leaving in droves for years, and not replaced.

As I have 2 degrees myself no I don't think having a degree means lacking empathy. Please don't put words into my mouth.
I really didn't - in fact I qualified my post by saying that you 'at least appeared to be' equating having a degree with lack of empathy. The only words in your mouth here are your own, but you keep defending them, rather than admit that they were misleading.

I worked in universities for most of my career (and still do, now and then), and I have never once heard them described as 3rd level, so it is not surprising that people are unfamiliar with the term.

But whatever you meant by it, what I take issue with is not that - it is the idea that graduate entry for nurses has led to a lack of empathy in the profession. I really don't think that this is true, and that if complaints about nurses' lack of time for patients are going to be made, they should be made to the government for its shocking lack of funding to the NHS.

Beswitched

I think you misunderstood my post. When I said 3rd level I meant a qualification from a 3rd level institution ie a university.

she did post this on Thursday, it's now Saturday but I don't think welbeck has helped

I read it differently, so I do think some of it is nuance. I think there are issues wrt education like why no more secretarial college, nursing schools, catering college, teacher training centres. I know some of the language changed as not to disparage those who had to choose a different route. I do think care needs a real bloody shake up though including nursing care. I had an operation at a private hospital and I did feel cared for but only one qualified nurse for the whole team. Maybe there is a middle ground. No one should feel less though and I think we can all say when we send someone vulnerable into hospital, atm especially, the first things we want is for them to receive care and comfort as well as medical care

How is your Mum Beswitched?

Beswitched

I've explained already that by 3rd level degree I meant a degree from a university ie an institute that provides 3rd level as opposed to 2nd level (secondary school) education. Some posters seem to be assuming I meant a 3rd class or 3rd rate degree.

Perhaps you'd read the thread properly before coming on and insulting me.

It doesn't read like that Beswitched and it would help if you accepted it. You said But since it became a profession requiring a 3rd level degree, i.e., you described the degree required not the primary, secondary and tertiary education levels.

It looks like an insult and reads like an insult to nurses so it is not unreasonable for people to read it as an insult. An apology and perhaps asking GNHQ to edit the OP would be better than attacking those who read exactly what you wrote.

If there were no beds what was she supposed to do?

I remember my grandmother when she was terminally ill in the 60s. A nurse called 3 times a day to give her a morphine injection. One particular nurse was regularly late, poor gran was in agony. When she dared to complain the nurse replied, "You're a Catholic aren't you? You should accept suffering for Jesus." I don't think she was very caring.

As I have 2 degrees myself no I don't think having a degree means lacking empathy. Please don't put words into my mouth.

I do think that the changing nature of nursing, with as much emphasis on the scientific academic side means that some people are attracted to nursing because of an interest in science/biology but lack the vocation for caring that is also very important.

In the same way that some doctors are brilliant academically but have no bedside manner.

All degrees are '3rd level' by that definition, surely? You don't get them at school.

But since it became a profession requiring a 3rd level degree it also seems to have attracted people who really don't seem to be suited to the job and treat patients and their families as a nuisance.
Beswitched Whatever you meant by '3rd level degree', you must admit that you (at least appear to be) conflating having a degree with a lack of empathy?

I think the nature of nursing has changed. I don't know if that has happened because the graduate entry requirements have meant that they are capable of more, or whether raising the entrance qualifications is to reflect the fact that nurses are now expected to do much more specialised work than in the past.

I don't think that any of that is to do with caring or not, though. If someone thinks of patients and their families as a nuisance, why would they go into nursing at all, never mind spend three years studying to qualify? They aren't in it for the money or the status, are they? I can only think that nurses go into the profession precisely because they do care, and if they are not able to carry out the caring side of their role because of cutbacks and lack of funding, it is very unfair to blame that on 'getting above themselves' because they have jumped through the hoops that are now required to qualify.

I've explained already that by 3rd level degree I meant a degree from a university ie an institute that provides 3rd level as opposed to 2nd level (secondary school) education. Some posters seem to be assuming I meant a 3rd class or 3rd rate degree.

Perhaps you'd read the thread properly before coming on and insulting me.

Beswitched. You are very disrespectful to our profession suggesting nursing is only worthy for people with 3rd level degrees. Your lack of care and compassion towards those of us in the caring profession is a reflection of why nurses are leaving .

I don't know about the old days , but a friend of mine was taken into hospital yesterday and she is quite elderly blind and partially deaf.
She has no family so i look in as much as i can.
I rung the hospital this morning only to be told they hadn't time to speak to me to ring back this afternoon.
She manage to ring me herself after struggling to find her mobile, she hasn't been told anything and they are treating her like a senile old lady.
She is that upset by their attitude towards her she has discharged herself.

My son has sadly required many hospital visits and stays during the last ten years and in all honesty the care he's had has been absolutely outstanding.
Just before the pandemic hit we had to see yet another consultant and during the appointment, emotion got the better of us both at one point...everything was stopped and he took us into a side room, he made us tea and sat with us both for around half an hour just chatting.
Compared to the treatment my parents had in their last years it's been unbelievable....so much for their good old days!

MadeInYorkshire - I am so sorry to hear the dreadful saga of your health problems.

The NHS is a mixed bag - I find that it is either excellent or dangerously hopeless.

I could fill up a lot of space with all the dreadful and negligent care my OH had - including allowing him to become seriously dehydrated during several surgery delays, in spite of the fact that I and my DDs kept pointing out to them how long it was since he last had any fluids.

Some of the failings were due to lack of staff and lack of equipment. Every time he needed to wee, he would have to wait ages (often over an hour) while two nurses were found (he needed two to transfer) and a standing aid. Achieving this combination was a long slow process. We stayed with him all day every day to make sure he was fed and watered - we should not have had to do that.

But we also encountered nurses who were kindness itself, but were just completely run off their feet and utterly exhausted.

One of the biggest problems in the NHS is communication: between departments, and with patients and carers. It honestly feels as though the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing.

you could give them, your GP, a print-out of your post above.
it makes clear what you have been through, and why seeking a different hospital is a reasonable request.
good luck.

MadeInYorkshire, what an ordeal you have been going through. all our support and best wishes to you.
is there any chance you could lobby your GP to get the next surgery done at a different hospital.

Exactly, care was always as important as the treatment at one time. Nobody seems to have the time to stop and talk or explain anything which is sad. A trained / retired person should be employed to give their time to patients who are either undergoing procedures or are awaiting admission etc. and who are anxious which many are but staff can't always spare their time. I agree with that response

JaneJudge

MadeinYorkshire lots of love, that sounds so traumatic x

Thank you JaneJudge, that seems to be my life at the moment!! xx

Lots of interesting stories here. When I was 17 I had a serious motorcycle accident - arm broken in several places and a broken neck. The first hospital i was in was very grim. The food was inedible so my parents and grandparents brought food in for me. No one ever really explained what was happening to me regarding operations etc. A nurse would appear one evening and tell me I was having an operation in my arm or having a collar fitted. Eventually my father made an appointment to speak to the consultant to find out was going on. The nursing care was ok with some nurses being kinder than others. I wasn’t allowed out of bed for four weeks! My hair wasn’t washed in that time but I had regular bed baths. After the ‘big’ operation on my arm I was transferred to another hospital for two weeks, where coincidentally my mum was a nurse! I had my hair washed and the food was good. Years later and particularly since I retired, I have been in hospital several times - emergency call bladder removal, breast cancer and several knee things. Of course were three births and a miscarriage too. All the various hospitals have had their good and bad aspects. The NHS ones can’t seem to get the food right but most of the staff have been wonderful. My knee operations have all been done privately, otherwise I would still be waiting. Private hospitals gave got food right, but as with the NHS, nursing care varies.

Sorry my 1st post above was addressed to Pippa and my 2nd to Blossoming

She's in hospital now, which is such a relief. Thank you for enquiring.

I think you misunderstood my post. When I said 3rd level I meant a qualification from a 3rd level institution ie a university.

MadeinYorkshire lots of love, that sounds so traumatic x

Why don't you tell us what you think, welbeck? ?