Binders. The world has gone mad.

www.sandras-online.co.uk/products/slenderella-winceyette-brushed-cotton-long-sleeve-nightdress-longer-length?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0Om6rKeT9AIVTOvtCh2XIwYtEAQYBCABEgJL7_D_BwE

Just for you, Doodledog, to keep you warm along with your liberty bodice ?

They did have rubber buttons, and I think mine wrapped around the chest - a bit like ballerina-style tops. They were made of winsyette, which is clearly spelt wrongly, but is so ancient a term that spell check doesn't recognise it to correct it?.

I had a liberty bodice if those were the things with rubber buttons. I’m just grateful I’m not old enough and wasn’t poor enough to be if the generations sewn into their underwear.

I had a vest as well Rosie51

By gum, it were parky back in the olden days.

Am I the only one who didn't have a liberty bodice and desperately wanted one ?? I'm assuming they were more expensive than regular vests, which would explain why mum only bought those which I couldn't wait to ditch aged about 10 or 11.

The medical community is in many cases saying hold on a moment, I have no idea if that is pro trans or anti trans, I have no.idea what that even means to be honest.

I can remember wearing one at junior school but had ditched it by the time I was about 10. They were quite soft and comfy and not at all restrictive, though, so perhaps they'll make a comeback if gas goes up much more in price.

Calistemon I remember liberty bodices too - in the days before central heating. They were only worn by little girls though. Nobody of corset age would have had one. I think I ditched mine when I started school and it was another thing to complicate getting changed for PE.

Spot on, Wheniwasyourage.

I’m not even sure that there is a ‘medical community’ when it comes to things like this. People have opinions, and some are different from others.

I don’t agree that ‘gender critical are against trans’ either. I am sick of saying that I am nothing of the kind, but it seems that unless you agree that sex can change and that there should be no sex-based rights you are ‘anti-trans’, and nothing you say will change that blinkered perception.

Witzend

nanna8

I’ve never heard of this, Australia tends to be a bit behind some of theses ‘trends’. In this case I am glad. Reminds me of the stays and liberty bodices they had way back when, albeit with a different aim ( or perhaps not ?)

I remember wearing liberty bodices as a very small child - AFAIK they were just an extra layer for warmth. If there was another reason I’d be genuinely interested to hear it - I can’t think what, though.

I did hear yesterday that liberty bodices were so named because they liberated women from the whalebone corsets they used to wear.

However, yes, we wore them as little girls for an extra layer of warmth before such mod cons as central heating.

The Liberty Bodice was invented by Fred Cox, Marketing Director at R & W H Symington & Co Ltd in 1908. It was a fleecy knitted vest with rubber buttons, re-enforcing cotton tapes and buttons to attach drawers and stockings. The bodice helped to change the way that children dressed in the early part of the twentieth century.

Until then most middle and upper class children wore supporting re-enforced corsets that were supposed to help ‘train’ their developing bodies. The Liberty Bodice was a softer, less restricting garment that allowed children to move around and play, at a time when playing and being active were viewed as an important parts of childhood.
www.harboroughmuseum.org.uk/museum-collections/the-liberty-bodice/

I think the American version was called an Emancipation Bodice, freeing women from wearing restrictive corsets.

There is a bit of a difference between the "medical community" helping people who are genuinely in need of help to transition and untrained people providing equipment to enable young girls to try to avoid the normal changes of puberty. Many of them, and boys of that age too, find that stage in life difficult enough, and take a while to get used to the changes in their bodies, so why confuse them further? Wait until they are older and can make an informed decision.

I think that saying that the "medical community" is "pro trans" is like saying that the "medical community" is pro depression or pro acne. If there is a condition which needs to be treated and there is a treatment available, then that is what the "medical community" does.

GagaJo, writing in capitals online is shouting. I can’t believe you don’t know that.

Anyway, Lush is not literally selling the binders, but it is facilitating the buying of them in conjunction with a company that supports transitioning of young people.

To me it’s equivalent to their supplying drugs, and having people saying that it’s ok, as at least they are pure, and who cares if the parents don’t know, because they would just disapprove and young teens don’t talk to them anyway.

I know that binders aren’t illegal, but IMO they could well be a gateway to a road that is difficult to get off. These things take on cult status amongst young people p, as Molly’s earlier example suggests.

The medical community is pro trans and doing a lot already to help them transition by giving them the correct hormone levels.

They can already alter the appearance of genitals to match. Who knows what medical marvels are in the future. I would suspect that more new firsts are coming and eventually transplanted functioning sex organs grown from the persons own cells are possible given known breakthroughs in the field of growing new body parts

Are gender critical against trans?

I thought it was the view that biological sex can not (as yet) be changed.

Which is a fact, isn’t it?

It’s neither for or against. It just is what it is.

trisher

I apologise I thought from all the things posted on this thread that the assistants in Lush were in some way involved in selling these things. It just goes to show how many inaccuracies are posted on these matters and how foolish it is to believe a word of what is said in condemnation. It seems Lush is just providing a collection service. It's probably possible to order the same items and Click and Collect them somewhere, is everyone just as incensed about this service?

Why is Lush providing a collection service? The binders could just as easily be sent to the buyer's homes? Binders seem a very odd fit for a company that only sells cosmetic products. Will they be facilitating collection of other totally unrelated items? Probably not, unless it's related to gender identity ideology, they're a company that can't stop making grovelling apologies because they donated £3000 to a women's group.
Do you know of any other click and collect service for this company's binders, I couldn't find any?

Also also I don't think being rude is against guidelines and I don't report....

But I'm a sensitive person and when I engage in these discussions, the waves of dislike coming at me make me worry I might burst into flames or something

Can we just say anything now. I appreciate that gender critical individual are against trans.
What a load of nonsense.
I am suggesting that transmen would benefit from adequate research on appropriate healthcare. Rather than blindly following a route which is certainly causing those who de transition harm. And may be causing many young women harm because we havent looked properly at what is happening. Since when has properly assessing what works been anti trans. I would suggest that continuing to follow a route that medical professionals are raising concerns about is about might not show a great deal of care for the welfare of transpeople.

Also, the only BBC programme I watch is Doctor Who and I don't even watch that live. Apart from that, not interested in BBC and don't care what they do so not relevant to me

Neither of you, (nor VS for that matter) have engaged with the Stonewall thread, a fact which many have noticed.

Is there a mandatory reading list?
I think there is already a minimum required poster participation list.

Don't bring me into it!

I've been minding my business

A lot of very angry people here. None of my posts have been shouty (I've just reread them). But demanding others respond to you and haranging posters is rude. By all means do it, but you won't get calm interesting discussion (if that's what you want) if you talk to others that way.

People get to select their own clothing. I appreciate that gender critical individuals are against trans, but really, we can't dictate what others wear.

AND if the products aren't available, those individuals will find other ways to achieve the same effects.

GagaJo

I really don't know why threads with trans issues in them have to resort to rudeness. It happens repeatedly in these threads but not in others. Why?

You waded in with a SHOUTY post accusing me of insisting on an answer, and trisher is saying the same.

I have done no such thing. How is it ok for you both to question others, but when we do the same it is interrogation or insistence? In your case, GagaJo, you recently barked at me directly to 'BE CLEAR' in my answer to one of your questions, and then refused to engage with my reply as it was not in the last six posts on the page, yet you accuse me of rudeness. How does that work?

Neither of you, (nor VS for that matter) have engaged with the Stonewall thread, a fact which many have noticed. Yes, of course it is up to you all to decide which threads to answer, but the BBC ditching Stonewall is a massive thing, and as you are the only people I 'know' who support trans issues regardless of their impact on women (I know plenty of people who, as I do, am supportive of individual transpeople to live their lives as they choose), I wondered what you thought about it.

I am particularly interested in the last sentence of their statement, which they emboldened: Our work continues until the world we imagine is the world we live in.

That intrigues me, as I have no idea what it means. What is 'the world that Stonewall imagines'? I am asking you what you think on this thread (as you are not engaging with the other one), as I don't know who else could answer from a TRA point of view. I don't see anything interrogative or insistent in that.

Incidentally, I know you disagree, which is fine, but IMO acting against women's interests is anti-feminist, not simply disagreeing with another woman.

I apologise I thought from all the things posted on this thread that the assistants in Lush were in some way involved in selling these things. It just goes to show how many inaccuracies are posted on these matters and how foolish it is to believe a word of what is said in condemnation. It seems Lush is just providing a collection service. It's probably possible to order the same items and Click and Collect them somewhere, is everyone just as incensed about this service?

Report it if you think it’s rude.
I decided to research the stuff you mentioned as I don’t have a convenient group of friends with any conditions mentioned on GN and it’s all out there so you could have done the same.

trisher

Pammie1

* On this thread apparently every positive post about binders promotes transition.*

No, not at all. As previous posters have said, there are various contributing factors for their use. However it’s a cause for concern that young girls who are gender uncertain or have other body issues, are being encouraged by Lush to go behind their parents’ backs in order to obtain them, and may therefore miss out on any appropriate help or counselling. But then you know that.

And if you want you can buy them on line without any help measuring or fitting from anyone- which is so much better isn't it?????

Which is exactly what Lush are facilitating!