Binders. The world has gone mad.

* On this thread apparently every positive post about binders promotes transition.*

No, not at all. As previous posters have said, there are various contributing factors for their use. However it’s a cause for concern that young girls who are gender uncertain or have other body issues, are being encouraged by Lush to go behind their parents’ backs in order to obtain them, and may therefore miss out on any appropriate help or counselling. But then you know that.

I don't know how anyone can 'promote homosexuality'. Section 28 was a ludicrous attempt to drive gay teachers out, or to ensure that they had to hide their sexuality from anyone who might use it against them. It was cruel and pointless, as gay children will be gay, with or without 'promotion' from teachers, but had to manage without positive role models, and in any case, there was never any reason to try to prevent this.

Those promoting breast-binders may not necessarily be promoting transition, but they are promoting the right of companies to make profit out of children modifying their bodies, and encouraging them to do so without the knowledge and consent of their parents or carers.

Doodledog

What is coming through loud and clear, trisher is that far from simply being supportive of people wanting to live quietly as a member of the opposite sex (as you have claimed on other threads), you are actively pushing the transgender cause, to the point where you would not only be complicit in the eradication of sex-based rights for women, but would encourage children to go behind the backs of their parents in order to get body-modifying garments with no counselling or professional support.

I realise that you have chosen to ignore the 'BBC pulling out of Stonewall' thread, but it would be interesting to know what you make of the last line of their statement in response to this news: 'Our work continues until the world we imagine is the world we live in.'

My question to you is 'What is the world you imagine would be an ideal one in this regard, and do you have a line in the sand when it comes to fighting to achieve it?'

@Doodledog. I looked at the thread on Stonewall with some interest, and there were some notable absences from a few people I would have expected to take part - even if it was from an opposing position. Not sure what to make of it really.

I agree, without knowing the details of the case it’s difficult to know what the accusation of ‘promoting homosexuality’ involved. However, taking into account the sensitivity of a setting like a school, must we not accept that there must have been some valid foundation, given that he lost his job ? The point I was making is relevant to the issues in this thread - there’s a safeguarding issue and I’m not saying homosexuality in itself is wrong - far from it - but promoting it, in whatever way, in a school setting as a teacher in a position of responsibility and trust, certainly is.

Pammie1

* Reminds me when a local man was removed from teaching job (he lived in America) at a school as he was told he was promoting homosexuality.*

I don’t necessarily see this as homophobic or wrong. he’s not a teacher to ‘promote’ homosexuality, or anything else for that matter. He’s there to teach and if he introduces his own agenda then he has to take the consequences.

Just because you are "told you are promoting homosexuality" it doesn't mean you are openly teaching or even speaking about it. People have been accused of doing this simply because they are homosexual. When Clause 28 was debated in parliament Tony Benn made this statement which I think might be applied to some of the criticising and condemning of support for transpeople

if the sense of the word "promote" can be read across from "describe", every murder play promotes murder, every war play promotes war, every drama involving the eternal triangle promotes adultery; and Mr. Richard Branson's condom campaign promotes fornication. The House had better be very careful before it gives to judges, who come from a narrow section of society, the power to interpret "promote"

On this thread apparently every positive post about binders promotes transition.

What is coming through loud and clear, trisher is that far from simply being supportive of people wanting to live quietly as a member of the opposite sex (as you have claimed on other threads), you are actively pushing the transgender cause, to the point where you would not only be complicit in the eradication of sex-based rights for women, but would encourage children to go behind the backs of their parents in order to get body-modifying garments with no counselling or professional support.

I realise that you have chosen to ignore the 'BBC pulling out of Stonewall' thread, but it would be interesting to know what you make of the last line of their statement in response to this news: 'Our work continues until the world we imagine is the world we live in.'

My question to you is 'What is the world you imagine would be an ideal one in this regard, and do you have a line in the sand when it comes to fighting to achieve it?'

Children will do lots of things that may be damaging, talking about these issues is very important, it is pontificating as you put it that has given support to the de detransitioners in finding a way forward, it is pontificating that got the guidelines for schools changed to stop the teaching relying heavily on stereotypes, it is pontificating that means people dont use the term born in the wrong body now.

* Reminds me when a local man was removed from teaching job (he lived in America) at a school as he was told he was promoting homosexuality.*

I don’t necessarily see this as homophobic or wrong. he’s not a teacher to ‘promote’ homosexuality, or anything else for that matter. He’s there to teach and if he introduces his own agenda then he has to take the consequences.

It’s always about money and profit.

“Follow the money”

Incidentally Lush have been operating on a false reputation for organic products since it’s inception. Clever marketing.

trisher

Well obviously some people lead idyllic family lives, but in the real world many teenagers go through times when they can't communicate with their parents.. Quite often the person they seek advice from is the non-qualified, sympathetic looking person who looks, or seems to be, the sort of person they would like to be.Sometimes the advice is good sometimes it isn't but imagining it doesn't happen, that it is always a bad thing or that it doesn't sometimes help the person concerned is just unrealistic. Is it ideal? of course it isn't, but it happens.
And all this preaching and idealism might make you all feel good but it isn't the reality for many girls. Still it shows how totally removed from real life some of you are.
Ideally every troubled child would have supportive loving parents they can talk to, will be provided with the counselling and support they need from professionals, will discuss their issues and resolve them. Unfortunately real life is more messy.

It isn’t preaching or idealism not to want someone who has gender uncertainly and is vulnerable to seek advice from as you put it a ‘non qualified, sympathetic looking person who looks or seems to be the sort of person they would like to be’. The advice from a teenage shop assistant will never be ‘good’. They’re not counsellors, they’re there to push sales and will say anything to achieve that end. FFS !!!

Mollygo none of the medical experts posting about binding say it will alter or damage anyone in the way you choose to compare it. Binders may cause skin damage or back pain but only if they are not used properly www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/what-is-chest-binding
If a teenage girl has not the money to buy on-line then she won't have the money to buy at Lush.

grannydarkhair there are many families in the US where children are entered into beauty pageants and other events. Some would regard this as child abuse but such behaviour is absolutely nothing to do with being trans.

Girls will buy binders. Their reasons for buying them will be various. Some of them will be trans. Some of them will simply be self conscious, Some of them will change as they grow into their own body. Some of them will transition. The reasons are varied and many. What is certain is that all this protest and pontificating won't make the slightest difference to them. They will buy them and wear them.

You may not know that many in the lgb community are raising serious concerns about this, it might be worth listening to some of those voices before you imply homophobia.

Absolutely right there. It's worrying that transgender concerns are being conflated with homophobia. If in any doubt, head over to the LGB Alliance website and read up. Or maybe ask a homosexual how they feel about being told that their preferred same sex relationships are transphobic.

So Dilly if your sons wanted to change and were offered scrotum binders which would damage them, you’d be happy because that’s their personal choice as opposed to being castrated to suit the needs of others?

Agreed, Galaxy.

Trans issues are not about sexuality, and it's tedious to keep seeing them linked. In fact, doing so has homophobic overtones, as the idea that gay people are somehow parodies of the opposite sex went out with Dick Emery and John Inman.

Gay people aren't hybrid men/women. Yes, there are camp men and butch lesbians, but that is far from the whole picture.

The increase in f to m transition in young girls is a recognised statistical change, there appears to have no corresponding correlation in middle aged women transitioning. Many in the field are raising concerns about this. We dont need peoples beliefs on this subject we need qualitative research. Thanks for comparing these concerns to homophobia though. You may not know that many in the lgb community are raising serious concerns about this, it might be worth listening to some of those voices before you imply homophobia.

trisher

If any teenage girl really wants these things she can order them on-line quite easily, so who is selling them is rather irrelevant. Discomfort with a teenage body is probably far more common and can't necessarily be linked to trans gender issues.
The idea that the girl is going to get immediate counselling or support is ludicrous. Even really serious mental health issues are being neglected because of a serious shortage and lack of funding for children's mental health.
Do most teenagers confide in their mothers anyway? Even in the most loving family a girl can have secrets. Perhaps the sympathetic teenage assistant who listens and offers some help may just give more in the way of support than a mother.

If any teenage girl really wants these things she can order them in line quite easily You must live in a different place. Pre-teens and
young teens rarely have disposable income to purchase things they want and many parents would expect to know what any money they had was spent on. That age group is most likely to want binders, especially if they have developed earlier than their peers and as you say it can’t necessarily be linked to trans issues.
Lush however, definitely is so linked and they have profits rather than girls’ well-being in mind.
The young Lush assistant has her daily sales target in mind and if listening and offering the ‘advice’ which supports what the shopper needs, whether it’s ‘which scented bath bombs etc. are best?’ or ‘will a binder help me?’ she will give the answer most profitable for her-in a very sympathetic voice.

If Shiloh had taken her pre-pubescent boy life far enough to cause her breasts to fail to develop into girl ones, she would not have ben able to transfer so easily to her life as an adult woman. Not every child who is doubtful about their gender will make an untroubled adolescence.

I think Angelina Jolie has done a great job with her daughter Shiloh. Allowed her to change her name to a boys name and live life as a little boy growing up, but also accepted when she then starting dressing in ‘female’ clothing as teen as seen at recent premieres.
The lack of fuss allowed the child to figure out her journey at her own pace.

I think someone is misunderstanding what I was saying earlier upthread. A poster was trying to compare FGM with breast binding, and the two can’t be compared. One is a procedure (if you can call something as violent and brutal as that a ‘procedure’) done under force to prevent female sexual pleasure as part of IMO misogynistic aspect of some cultures) and one is done by choice by individuals that don’t identify to their gender at birth.
I don’t have daughters, but I always wish I had, and if I had I would doubtless really struggle with my child changing gender.
But, in both my careers I worked with 50/50 gay men and straight women. I heard so many sad stories about how they knew from their very first memories they were different and their struggle with lack of acceptance from friends/family/religion and society.

I don’t believe as another poster said there are suddenly lots of children now wishing to change gender because of the agenda of woke culture, rather that these people were always there only now culture is more accepting (in some areas) and so people feel like that changing their gender is a possibility. As gagajo said they have always been there.

Someone pointed out the mental health struggles of those undergoing gender transition and mental health, but I imagine that lack of support and a society that hasn’t caught up yet would be a large factor in this.

I don’t pretend to be up with the play in these delicate conversations, but I think that reactions to people getting cross with lush for promoting gender change is a bit much. Reminds me when a local man was removed from teaching job (he lived in America) at a school as he was told he was promoting homosexuality.

*Oh well that's OK then. As long as the parents know and are complicit the physical damage will be so much better won't it.
Do we apply that to all forms of abuse?
As long as the parents are involved or know its OK?
These are small girls who have little knowledge but teenagers who are older and may have more knowledge have no right to choose.*

Well if it stops them feeling disgusted with their body, gives them some relief and space to think about things, yes it does.

@trisher Comparing a company selling breast binders and encouraging what are little more than children to buy them without their parents’ knowledge, to wearing heels for dress up is nonsensical. Have you actually read what previous posters have written about the track record of this company and the controversies it’s been involved in ? If so, why are you still defending them ? And breast binders are not designed to ‘give relief and space to think about things’. We all know the intention behind this so let’s not dress it up as something else.

And before you inevitably call me transphobic let me explain something. I am all for anyone being anything they want to be. Whatever you identify as, if it makes you happy, do it.

But please let’s not venture any further down the road of allowing vulnerable young people to make decisions which will affect the rest of their lives before they are physically and emotionally mature enough to take responsibility for those decisions and to understand seriousness of the long term consequences.

What you’re suggesting is that it’s perfectly acceptable to point our children to unscrupulous organisations such as Lush to fulfil, in secret, what they want right now - putting breast binders in the same category as heels for young girls, used for dress up purposes, suits the narrative - and it’s interesting that you picked on something that confirms gender identity rather than questions it.

Does it not make more sense to intervene to slow things down, and remind that they are very young and have plenty of time to explore their feelings as well as getting the appropriate counselling and support they need, before beginning a process which will lead to a decision that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.

nanna8

I’ve never heard of this, Australia tends to be a bit behind some of theses ‘trends’. In this case I am glad. Reminds me of the stays and liberty bodices they had way back when, albeit with a different aim ( or perhaps not ?)

I remember wearing liberty bodices as a very small child - AFAIK they were just an extra layer for warmth. If there was another reason I’d be genuinely interested to hear it - I can’t think what, though.

I’ve just skimmed through the last couple of pages so apologies if I’m about to be repetitive. One of the saddest facts of the trans issue is that there are a number of parents who unbelievably actively encourage their children to go down this route.
Research from gender transition specialists in the USA shows e.g. that very religious families find homosexuality so abhorrent, they would rather their child was trans. In other words a young girl professing same sex attraction would look more “normal” if she dressed/acted as a trans male when she was with a girl-friend. And vice versa for boys.
There’s a young American trans woman known as Jazz Jennings, who has undergone extensive surgery and I would be the first to say is lovely. S/he (he is still a biological male), said s/he was a “girl” from a very young age. S/he was actively encouraged in this by her family who are of the Jewish faith. While s/he looks lovely and healthy now, there are videos online of her in hospital more than once because of post surgical problems in which s/he is in obvious agony. I would really like to know how her parents felt when they saw their child suffering so much.
Another very young boy known as Desmond drag kid “performs” as a drag artist. Again, there are videos online, and tbh, I’ve cried when I’ve watched them. The way he looks and acts is highly sexualised, I think he was seven when he first “performed” in a bar.
It probably reads as if I’m a bit obsessed with this issue, but it’s like a rabbit-hole. You read one article, that leads you to another, and so on. There are excellent videos on YouTube by Exulansis (I think that’s her name), she is vehemently against young children being abused in the name of trans.
I really wish more people were aware of the background to this issue, it involves drug companies making millions, not only from the initial puberty blockers, but then from the drugs needed to combat the results of poor surgery, hormone treatment, pain, poor mental health, impotence, etc.
In the USA, it involves medical practitioners making millions by prescribing, performing surgery, etc.
And to bring it back to Lush, there are countless companies cashing in on the trans issue. E.g. Stonewall.
Twitter is a wonderful source of knowledge, it leads you to reputable sites and articles. But you have to be prepared to read some awful, vitriolic stuff. All of which, I’ve found comes from the pro trans, TWAW side. No wonder Kathleen Stock finally resigned, her life must have been miserable for three years.
Sorry, I didn’t realise I’d gone on quite so long.

This conversation has become surreal.

The fact that not all teens want to talk to their mums is being presented as though we are all too naive to realise that, and don't understand that the issue is complex. Of course we aren't; but that doesn't mean that it is better for children to talk to all and sundry about something as dysfunctional as breast binding, and be given advice about it from shop assistants with no training in psychology or child protection. Or shop assistants with PhDs in gender dysphoria who have not been consulted by a parent, carer or GP.

Breast-binding is not in the same ballpark as wanting to wear mascara, or high heels, for that matter, and to suggest that it is ok because there are other harmful things that kids could do is illogical and senseless.

Yes, high heels are bad for growing feet, but as has been said, it would be difficult for a nine year old to get her hands on them without her mother knowing, and even if she did, wearing then for an hour now and then is probably not going to do much harm.

It is less the breast-binders themselves that are the issue than the reason a child might want to wear them. I would have thought that this would be blindingly obvious, really. However much Mermaids or Stonewall might want to pretend that gender dysphoria is 'normal', it is a sign of unhappiness in a child, and often goes hand in hand with self-harm and other psychological issues. To suggest that a shop assistant should advise a child about deep-seated issues is beyond belief.

Not only that, but as Chewbacca has pointed out, Lush has links with the Trans lobby, so it is not acting out of a dispassionate objectivity - it has an axe to grind.

How far do the Lush-defenders think that responsibility for the welfare of children and young teens belongs to their parents? Would you prefer a society in which only the chosen few (ie those who will peddle the trans rights agenda) should be allowed to have an influence on them?

It's child abuse trisher; breast tissue is not meant to be compressed and done badly, can result in several health complications. But you know that. Stella O'Malley, a child pschotherapist said this about it Pretending that transition is a joyful experience that requires little more than emotional support does not help these vulnerable kids. We need to help gender distressed minors to navigate the realities of transition; this is a difficult process that carries a heavy burden on the body.’

And personally, I'd rather that a trained medical professional provided that support rather than a back street shop that sells sparkly bath bombs and body glitter to little girls.

Pammie1

*Ideally every troubled child would have supportive loving parents they can talk to, will be provided with the counselling and support they need from professionals, will discuss their issues and resolve them. Unfortunately real life is more messy.*

And selling them binders without their parents’ knowledge makes things soooooooooo much better doesn’t it ??!!

Well if it stops them feeling disgusted with their body, gives them some relief and space to think about things, yes it does.