Binders. The world has gone mad.

Pammie1

trisher

Pammie1

Hithere

The reality is that heels are available for minors,, just socially acceptable.

This is another transphobic thread

Congratulations @Hithere. You win the internet for today for introducing the word ‘transphobic’ into the discussion. And it what world is wearing high heels the same as wanting to bind your breasts ?

If this isn’t harmful then why are the company encouraging young impressionable girls to do this without their parents’ knowledge ? Because they know that the parents would see it for what it is - making money off the backs of confused and vulnerable young people who need support. It smacks of grooming. This is not transphobia, it’s trying to protect our young people from vultures like these who jump on the bandwagon and encourage them to be underhand and secretive.

Asyou obviously don't know high heels damage your calf muscles lecomhealth.com/the-real-harm-in-high-heels/
Here's where you can buy them for children www.adorablekidsdressup.com/product-category/adorable-kids-dress-up-fashion/high-heels-for-kids-girls/
I bet there are loads of mums getting these for their little girls.

But that’s not the point is it ? The parents are aware of what’s happening and can make an informed choice - this company is encouraging underhandedness and secrecy, and it smacks of grooming.

Oh well that's OK then. As long as the parents know and are complicit the physical damage will be so much better won't it.
Do we apply that to all forms of abuse?
As long as the parents are involved or know its OK?
These are small girls who have little knowledge but teenagers who are older and may have more knowledge have no right to choose.

There are some excellent posts on this thread; I'm so glad that the majority of posters are as appalled by this as I am. This isn't the first time that Lush have waded into controversy:

Lush British cosmetics retailer with nearly 1,000 stores in 49 countries, and it might be the greatest example of big business adopting a woke ideology in which it supplies girls with the tools for self-harm.

In 2018 Lush joined forces with Morgane Oger, a male who helped defund a rape crisis centre because it didn’t cater to men who identify as women, to “raise awareness” for trans rights.
In 2019 LGBT youth group Prism was invited by Lush to fundraise from the sale of its charity pots — in which Prism’s mentors represented the group in one store in Coventry. One of those representatives was Aimee Challenor.
That same year, Lush issued an apology after it emerged that some of the money from its charity pots had gone to a women’s group, and this upset trans activists. To make up for this, its Oxford Street store raised money for Trans Media Watch, while Lush has raised money for several other trans organisations, such as Mermaids.

In 2020, amid the height of the pandemic, a Lush store in Edinburgh, in response to a sticker that had been placed on a Lush store window saying prisons should remain single-sex, erected a sign telling customers, underneath a statement saying “All are welcome. Always”, that said that people should not enter the store if they have signs of “Covid-19 … or transphobia.

But in 2021 the activism took to a new level of grooming.

Its Paddington store, which recently promoted books about transitioning genders and raised money for My Genderation, posted on Instagram that it is now stocking breast binders.

he store is offering a “Binder collection point” in which anyone can purchase a breast binder provided they donate at least £7 to G(end)er Swap, a “clothing outreach organisation that supports trans and non-binary individuals”, and provide contact details.
If anyone is unsure what a breast binder is, there are several pages on Transgender Trend about them, while one study found over 97 percent of 1,800 young women who used a binder reported at least one negative outcome attributed to binding. The BBC once had a doctor answer questions about trans issues, and one of them was from a girl who wears a binder, and was in pain because they had resulted in her ribs popping out. This post from last month on breast binding is common online.

As one online commentator put it: “Lush are like the [corporate] stranger who wants to give kids sweets. Except now it’s binders and they’re collecting their contact details, so they know where to find them again.”

Ideally every troubled child would have supportive loving parents they can talk to, will be provided with the counselling and support they need from professionals, will discuss their issues and resolve them. Unfortunately real life is more messy.

And selling them binders without their parents’ knowledge makes things soooooooooo much better doesn’t it ??!!

trisher

Pammie1

Hithere

The reality is that heels are available for minors,, just socially acceptable.

This is another transphobic thread

Congratulations @Hithere. You win the internet for today for introducing the word ‘transphobic’ into the discussion. And it what world is wearing high heels the same as wanting to bind your breasts ?

If this isn’t harmful then why are the company encouraging young impressionable girls to do this without their parents’ knowledge ? Because they know that the parents would see it for what it is - making money off the backs of confused and vulnerable young people who need support. It smacks of grooming. This is not transphobia, it’s trying to protect our young people from vultures like these who jump on the bandwagon and encourage them to be underhand and secretive.

Asyou obviously don't know high heels damage your calf muscles lecomhealth.com/the-real-harm-in-high-heels/
Here's where you can buy them for children www.adorablekidsdressup.com/product-category/adorable-kids-dress-up-fashion/high-heels-for-kids-girls/
I bet there are loads of mums getting these for their little girls.

But that’s not the point is it ? The parents are aware of what’s happening and can make an informed choice - this company is encouraging underhandedness and secrecy, and it smacks of grooming.

High heels are very bad for both children and adults but dress up shoes won't be worn all day long. For children I am not at all sure they are socially acceptable in this country.

Well done trisher for missing the point again.
(New phrase to remember)
“loads of mums getting these for their little girls”
Whatever anyone’s opinion of high heels for small children is, and I think they’re silly, the point here is that the mums are buying them so at least they’ll know it’s happening.

Pammie1

Hithere

The reality is that heels are available for minors,, just socially acceptable.

This is another transphobic thread

Congratulations @Hithere. You win the internet for today for introducing the word ‘transphobic’ into the discussion. And it what world is wearing high heels the same as wanting to bind your breasts ?

If this isn’t harmful then why are the company encouraging young impressionable girls to do this without their parents’ knowledge ? Because they know that the parents would see it for what it is - making money off the backs of confused and vulnerable young people who need support. It smacks of grooming. This is not transphobia, it’s trying to protect our young people from vultures like these who jump on the bandwagon and encourage them to be underhand and secretive.

Asyou obviously don't know high heels damage your calf muscles lecomhealth.com/the-real-harm-in-high-heels/
Here's where you can buy them for children www.adorablekidsdressup.com/product-category/adorable-kids-dress-up-fashion/high-heels-for-kids-girls/
I bet there are loads of mums getting these for their little girls.

Binders have been around for a VERY long time, pointing to the fact that gender dysphoria has also been a long standing issue.

It is talked about in the novel, The Well of Loneliness and other historical documents.

That doesn't prevent anyone from having opinions about the use of them, but it isn't a new thing at all.

So, if parents know that, and are around, of course, it's wrong of them to discourage that because they are discriminatory?
That is what is being implied here.
"Mum, I feel I may be non binary"
"Here you go love, heres seven quid.
get yourself down to lush and order a binder"

Well obviously some people lead idyllic family lives, but in the real world many teenagers go through times when they can't communicate with their parents.. Quite often the person they seek advice from is the non-qualified, sympathetic looking person who looks, or seems to be, the sort of person they would like to be.Sometimes the advice is good sometimes it isn't but imagining it doesn't happen, that it is always a bad thing or that it doesn't sometimes help the person concerned is just unrealistic. Is it ideal? of course it isn't, but it happens.
And all this preaching and idealism might make you all feel good but it isn't the reality for many girls. Still it shows how totally removed from real life some of you are.
Ideally every troubled child would have supportive loving parents they can talk to, will be provided with the counselling and support they need from professionals, will discuss their issues and resolve them. Unfortunately real life is more messy.

Doodledog
I wouldn’t be responsible for my actions ?
But that’s irrelevant because my beautiful granddaughter loves her tits. She been wanting them for years ?

Hithere

The reality is that heels are available for minors,, just socially acceptable.

This is another transphobic thread

Congratulations @Hithere. You win the internet for today for introducing the word ‘transphobic’ into the discussion. And it what world is wearing high heels the same as wanting to bind your breasts ?

If this isn’t harmful then why are the company encouraging young impressionable girls to do this without their parents’ knowledge ? Because they know that the parents would see it for what it is - making money off the backs of confused and vulnerable young people who need support. It smacks of grooming. This is not transphobia, it’s trying to protect our young people from vultures like these who jump on the bandwagon and encourage them to be underhand and secretive.

Perhaps the moon is made of cheese.

Why would a teenage Lush assistant be more supportive than a mother, and in what parallel universe has her employer got the right to put this sort of responsibility onto her?

Teachers, lecturers, social workers and others who come into contact with young people are taught the limits of their remit, and know when to refer people who come to them with problems that are too complex for them to deal with. Admittedly, there are some who don't have the humility to know when they are overstepping the mark, but they are on dangerous ground.

If I found that my daughter had been advised on something like gender uncertainty by a well-meaning but unqualified person who thought that they knew best, I would be furious and would take action against them, as, I'm sure, would most parents. If I found that she had been counselled by a teenage shop assistant I would be incandescent. If I had a teenage daughter who was selling soap and she was asked to act as a mental health counsellor to vulnerable children I would be both furious and incandescent!

As for the likely delay in getting support - yes, mental health is a sadly neglected area, but are you seriously suggesting that the gaps should be filled by unqualified people not much older than the troubled children themselves?

If any teenage girl really wants these things she can order them on-line quite easily, so who is selling them is rather irrelevant. Discomfort with a teenage body is probably far more common and can't necessarily be linked to trans gender issues.
The idea that the girl is going to get immediate counselling or support is ludicrous. Even really serious mental health issues are being neglected because of a serious shortage and lack of funding for children's mental health.
Do most teenagers confide in their mothers anyway? Even in the most loving family a girl can have secrets. Perhaps the sympathetic teenage assistant who listens and offers some help may just give more in the way of support than a mother.

I was just wondering what would you do if you had a teenager who was deeply unhappy about her body and you wanted to help her?
If she was my daughter, I would encourage her to talk about what it was that made her unhappy, and attempt to explore that with her. If that couldn't be done for whatever reason I might seek professional help. This would be from a counsellor or doctor, however - not from a soap retailer or a dubious organisation who was profiting from the sale of garments designed to halt her natural growth and development.

Allowing or even helping her to explore how she feels by giving her a simple binder that makes her feel more comfortable is apparently abuse.
Agreed, if it has the result she is looking for, ie halting or hampering her development.

What then I wonder is totally denying her her right to feel as she does, ignoring her distress, and simply telling her she should put up with things and get over it?
I would say that this was abuse, too; but have no idea how that has come into the discussion, as absolutely nobody has suggested that children should be ignored and simply told to get over things.

I know which I think is worse.
I think one is as bad as the other, and would hate to think that someone who would countenance either were responsible for the care of the young. Deeply troubled children need to have the support of loving parents and qualified professionals who understand the issues - not well-intentioned but ill-informed outsiders or people who may profit from decisions that could impact on the lives of these children for years to come.

The current campaigns of transmen and transwomen reflect on the clothing and body-shape aims of far more than other trans people. Fashion is frequently initiated by the sexually adventurous of an era and subsequently taken up by young people who want to be in the swim.

Young girls with developing breasts who bind them to keep them from swelling inconveniently are not necessarily doing so because they want to become a different gender to the one they have. They may do so, or they may subconsciously wish to avoid sexuality and all the responsibilities and confusion it brings completely, or they may be following a transient fashion, or none of these things.

When a feminine hourglass figure was the female fashionable aim in Victorian and Edwardian times, young women laced themselves into tight underwear that permanently damaged their spleens. Those corsets are now regarded with horror.

If it is a very transient fashion, it will pass before they do themselves permanent damage, but the risk is there, just as it was to the spleens of more than a century ago. No commercial business should be making a profit from girls' bodies by jumping on this bandwagon.

Not sure if the US is la la land or la la land is where many posters are right now

Elizabeth27

1920s flappers used binders to create the flat chest and in the 1970s I knew people that used bandages to get the Twiggy look.

Binders made of spandex must be better than non stretch bandages, corsets or duct tape which have been used.

That was because of fashion and not because of any issues with gender which is being promoted here.

trisher

I was just wondering what would you do if you had a teenager who was deeply unhappy about her body and you wanted to help her? Allowing or even helping her to explore how she feels by giving her a simple binder that makes her feel more comfortable is apparently abuse. What then I wonder is totally denying her her right to feel as she does, ignoring her distress, and simply telling her she should put up with things and get over it? I know which I think is worse.

A teenage girl could be unhappy about her body for all kinds of reasons but most would not be unhappy because they want to change gender.

1920s flappers used binders to create the flat chest and in the 1970s I knew people that used bandages to get the Twiggy look.

Binders made of spandex must be better than non stretch bandages, corsets or duct tape which have been used.

Wheniwasyourage

Am I wrong in thinking that you are in the USA, Hithere?

No your not wrong. La La land.?

If the choice is only between either telling a troubled early-teen daughter to get over it or turning a blind eye while she goes to a commercial cosmetic company to be sold what is essentially an orthopedic device, by unqualified assistants (and part-time temporary ones at this time of year) over-the-counter, without any reference to concerned parents, then no wonder she is troubled with a family like that!

Most parents wouldn't go to either of those extremes, but would be gentler with her and keep a close eye on the situation. They would not want the Saturday teenage assistants having a life-time formative influence on an inexperienced adolescent just dipping her toes into adult sexuality and gendering.

I would suggest on a societal level some decent bloody research on the issue, that might be the most helpful suggestion to young girls experiencing this issue. As a parent I would be absolutely distraught and get a range of advice, none of it would be from Lush.

If I had a teenager so distressed that she wanted to wear a binder I'd be looking for professional help and advice. I would not consider Lush or their partner to be authorities especially as they'd never met my child. It isn't a binary of send her to Lush or tell her to get over it, it's far more nuanced. If it was decided a binder was the way to deal with the distress I'd want it properly fitted under medical guidance.

My friend’s daughter had a lot of issues with her body image. She felt she was too fat so she reduced her food intake. Her parents were very concerned and sought medical help. She was admitted to hospital where she was confined to bed, because any exertion could trigger a heart attack, and tube-fed for weeks and weeks because she was so agonisingly underweight. My own dd visited her at this time and was utterly distraught by what she saw. Eventually, the tide turned and this young girl recovered, although she is likely to now be infertile and have lifelong heart problems.

Should her parents have encouraged her in her belief that her body was ‘wrong’ and allowed her the choice of eliminating all food from her diet?