Women's prisons.

Yes it is nightmarish. Women’s prisons are difficult places for inmates and staff . Women in prison have mental health issues, compounded by being away from, or losing their children. The emotional atmosphere can be labile why do anything to make it worse

It really is the stuff of nightmares, isn't it? Or the plot of Orange is the New Black or Bad Girls. Being locked into a confined space with a violent sex offender, when someone else has the key and control of the light switch.

It will be interesting to see if those figures have changed for the period 2020 - 2021 Iam64, especially so since the ministry of justice said, in July 2021, that they were:

“facilitating the rights of transgender people to live in and as their acquired gender (and) protecting transgender people’s mental and physical health”.

No mention of the vulnerable women's mental or physical health of those sharing a confined space with them.

X posted there Chewbacca. Many thanks for the details

Thanks for your OP kircubbin2000.
I’m catching up after a busy day. It’s great to see so many contributions and from some posters who either felt unsupported or wanted to avoid some of the other trans threads.
My experience of women in prisons started in 1978 and continued over almost 40 years. The majority of female prisoners experienced abuse in childhood and adult life. The perpetrators almost always men. Their vulnerability, mental health problems, disrupted attachments, separation from children, drug/alcohol dependence, etc are all well researched and recorded.
It’s outrageous that this vulnerable group are expected to live alongside men who have sexually abused children and women, simply because the perpetrators self ID. It should be possible to use space in the prison buildings, to segregate male sex offenders who self ID as female.
I’m not a great supporter of segregation but I’m even less a supporter of women losing rights and security.
Trans wings for self ID?

In 2019 there were 163 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, 81 of whom had been convicted of one or more sexual offences. Of the 163, 34 were held in women’s prisons. Between 2016 and 2019, a total of 97 sexual assaults were recorded in women’s prisons, of which seven appeared to be committed by transgender prisoners without a Gender Reassignment Certificate.

The seven, of the 124 sex attacks, occurred at HMP Low Newton in Co Durham, Foston Hall in Derbyshire, Peterborough, Bronzefield in Middlesex and New Hall, West Yorkshire.

Pammie1. ? Kate

Sorry, that last sentence is rubbish. Most TM are likely to be smaller and weaker than most men, just as most TW are likely to be bigger and stronger than most women.

I'm only speaking for myself, but I think that similarly to transwomen, if a transman has medically transitioned (ie has a penis) then a man's prison is the best place for him, but if not, then a women's would be better.

Most transmen are likely to be smaller and weaker than most women, just as most TW are likely to be bigger and stronger.

So where do we think that trans men should be inprisoned: in a man's or women's prison?

NanKate

You get me wrong Pammie. Doodledog asked for an alternative name for genuine trans people and I came up with bona fide.

I think she was differentiating trans people who lead their lives peacefully in their new persona, from those such as trans women who are predatory sex offenders.

I understand that some people want to change sex and that is up to them, but I still believe you can’t fundamentally change your sex even after surgery.

I’ve noticed that when Doodledog has asked the pro trans people for a definition of a woman she doesn’t get a response.

Did you hear the head of Stonewall on Woman’s Hour this week? She just couldn’t give a straight answer. I believe Stonewall used to be a great support to gay and lesbian people, but it has changed drastically recently since the trans people have taken over.

My apologies @NanKate - I had my proverbial panties in a knot as it’s a subject that really gets under my skin, and I read your post the wrong way !! Very sorry. I didn’t hear the Woman’s Hour programme but it’s on iplayer, so I plan to catch it when I have a minute, later. Stonewall are losing significant support - I think due to the stance they’ve taken in supporting trans activists.

I would make an exception for medically transitioned TW who have been living as women for some time. I think there is a huge difference between them and someone who just says they are a woman and must be believed.

I think the muddle is happening because we pretended that you can change sex. You cant. No man should be in a womans prison whatever their crime. Lots of men are at risk in mens prisons, gay men, men of different religions, men who arent physically strong. We cant put men in womens prisons because men are at risk from other men.

I would hate to see anyone unhappy if they feel they are a woman in a man's body and wish to change.
I would have thought those genuine trans women would want to be with us in every way but there is a small minority who want to join a well established group and change the rules to suit themselves.

You get me wrong Pammie. Doodledog asked for an alternative name for genuine trans people and I came up with bona fide. I think she was differentiating trans people who lead their lives peacefully in their new persona, from those such as trans women who are predatory sex offenders.

Yes, sorry - I muddied the waters there. I can see that what I called genuine transwomen would be at risk from predators in a male prison (think Hayley from Coronation Street), and I don't think it would be fair to house them in there. I was trying, clumsily, to separate them from predators who pretend to be TW in order to prey on female prisoners, but got in a muddle as we can't easily tell who is pretending and who isn't. This isn't a straightforward situation, and despite accusations to the contrary, I am not transphobic and want to be fair to everyone.

Nevertheless, the bottom line is that no male-bodied sex offenders should be anywhere near vulnerable women, never mind in a locked cell with them. In the end, the rights of women need to come first in this situation, as it is TW who are 'invading' a single-sex space. I also think that violent sex offenders shouldn't expect to have their rights put above those of anyone, really.

Also, it's great to see more contributors on this thread?.

Thank you, Elegran, as usual you explain it very clearly, as I obviously failed to do.

Galaxy

We dont house people by what crime they commit we house them by sex.

And their sex, as shown by their Y chromosomes and, if they have been convicted of raping women, by their continuing sexual predilections and their actions, is still male. Their gender of choice may be female, but that has not changed their underlying sex.

You get me wrong Pammie. Doodledog asked for an alternative name for genuine trans people and I came up with bona fide.

I think she was differentiating trans people who lead their lives peacefully in their new persona, from those such as trans women who are predatory sex offenders.

I understand that some people want to change sex and that is up to them, but I still believe you can’t fundamentally change your sex even after surgery.

I’ve noticed that when Doodledog has asked the pro trans people for a definition of a woman she doesn’t get a response.

Did you hear the head of Stonewall on Woman’s Hour this week? She just couldn’t give a straight answer. I believe Stonewall used to be a great support to gay and lesbian people, but it has changed drastically recently since the trans people have taken over.

The High Court ruled that men who identified as women, can be housed in women’s prisons, as they have their rights, so I guess they have no choice.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57692993

I don’t agree to be honest. One group’s rights shouldn’t be allowed to trample over another group’s rights.

Difficult though.

NanKate

What about bonafide transwomen ?

What about bonafide trans women. They are not and never will be female born and don’t belong in a womens’ prison. I am not anti trans by any means, but as a natal woman I’m getting fed up with hard won womens’ rights being trampled underfoot in the name of equality for a vocal minority who have no regard for the rights of others.

There was a thread on this subject on GN a couple of weeks ago. I agree that it’s difficult but in my view it’s just another invasion of womens’ safe spaces and yet again it’s something being forced on natural women, with little or no attention paid to the reasons for objections. I haven’t read the full thread to see if it’s come up here, but there are also plans to add time on to the sentence of any inmate deliberately ‘misgendering’ them. I think it’s only going to be a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

We dont house people by what crime they commit we house them by sex.

That's the point, Doodledog - the crime for which the person is sentenced is more relevant than the gender which they claim to belong to. If a person born male has committed a sexual offence he should be in a male prison. If he has been sentenced for a non-violent crime and claims to be a woman, it could be possible to discuss where he should be housed. However, I would think that anyone who has not started a proper period of transition by living as a woman and starting hormone treatment should not be regarded as a high priority for a place in a woman's prison.

Your post from yesterday at 18:23:41 is noted, and I will put in my tuppence-worth in future!

Bona fide means the same thing though (although it has a more pleasing sound?).

Actually, what am I talking about? Never mind if someone is genuine, bona fide or not! If they are a sex offender with a male body they should not be amongst women. No Debate.

Absolutely AGAA4. It’s asking for trouble putting them with women, and I can think of no reason at all why women should be put at risk to appease the demands of a vocal minority.