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Women's prisons.

(56 Posts)
kircubbin2000 Sat 20-Nov-21 12:37:17

Just read that prisons in England and Wales are housing male rapists in womens prisons and some are actually providing condoms!
Rugby and Shoreham are mentioned and today is a day of protest.
Whatever next?

Biscuitmuncher Sat 20-Nov-21 15:17:41

You really couldn't make it up

NanKate Sat 20-Nov-21 15:59:33

Very frightening for women who have the subject of male violence.

No doubt we will be told that trans women have a right to be there.

What a sad old world we are in. I despair 😔

Shinamae Sat 20-Nov-21 16:00:45

I do totally despair,the world has gone completely bloody mad 🤦‍♀️

AGAA4 Sat 20-Nov-21 16:11:33

Rapists in a women's prison?
Is it men do you think who have allowed this? I hope no woman would let this happen but who knows?

Wheniwasyourage Sat 20-Nov-21 16:17:41

It's so depressing reading the threads about anything to do with trans issues, including this one. I'm keeping out of it, but I do admire those who keep on standing up to the few posters who seem to be saying that the rights of trans women should always be superior to those of natal women. I don't even like using the term 'natal women', but IMO it's preferable to 'cis women' or the awful 'cervix havers'.

You're right, Shinamae, when you get male-bodied rapists insisting (successfully) on their right to be in a women's prison because they claim to identify as women, the world has indeed gone totally mad.

Jaxjacky Sat 20-Nov-21 16:21:01

Where did you read this kircubbin2000 please? I’ve googled but can’t see anything, thanks.

Nonogran Sat 20-Nov-21 16:21:39

I think when my time comes, I won’t mind too much shuffling off this mortal coil. I’m in despair quite a lot these days.

AGAA4 Sat 20-Nov-21 16:23:45

Does a woman who is raped by someone identifying as a female have to say she was raped by a woman? This indeed madness.

Doodledog Sat 20-Nov-21 18:23:41

AGAA4

Does a woman who is raped by someone identifying as a female have to say she was raped by a woman? This indeed madness.

Yes, unfortunately she does. It really is madness, but as was said above, the rights of transwomen are consistently put above those of women, and anyone who objects is accused of transphobia, as those who have ploughed through the rather turgid threads on the matter will realise.

I understand the reluctance to get involved, WhenIwasyourage, but it would be great to hear a few more voices on those threads. I appreciate that it must be boring to hear the same people slugging it out over and over, but I also think that this is such an important issue (particularly for the next generations of women) that I can't let some of the nonsense go unchallenged.

Similarly, it is the same voices arguing from what I see as a wholly anti-women point of view, and I have heard their arguments over and over but remain unconvinced. I don't think that anything they say will change my mind, so if others want to wade in from that perspective it would be good to hear fresh voices on that 'side' too.

There is no need for things to get nasty either. Again, I am clearly biased, but IMO it is only when people are rude, or persistently refuse to answer questions that I get snippy, and (as I see it) that is true of others on the 'gender critical' side of the debate. Nobody need fear a 'pile-on' if they get involved, and it would make a refreshing change.

Chardy Sat 20-Nov-21 19:12:21

kircubbin2000

Just read that prisons in England and Wales are housing male rapists in womens prisons and some are actually providing condoms!
Rugby and Shoreham are mentioned and today is a day of protest.
Whatever next?

I've never heard of a prison in Shoreham. Sussex has a well-known open prison in Ford, West Sussex, and a prison in Lewes in East Sussex. Shoreham is roughly halfway between.
Do you have a link, please?

Ilovecheese Sat 20-Nov-21 19:17:46

Well I did try to join in Doodledog and I think you saw the response that came my way. It didn't upset me but it was off putting.
I suppose I should try again and not leave it all to you and a few others.

Doodledog Sat 20-Nov-21 19:21:11

Ilovecheese

Well I did try to join in Doodledog and I think you saw the response that came my way. It didn't upset me but it was off putting.
I suppose I should try again and not leave it all to you and a few others.

Your posts were welcome, Ilovecheese, and I hope you agree that you got support when an attempt was made to silence you?

It's like plaiting fog, but if you can be bothered to come and join in, you'd be very welcome, as would anyone with any opinion on the matter.

Ilovecheese Sat 20-Nov-21 19:23:34

I can't do a link but if anyone googles "Lord Bencathra women's prisons" you will find details of his defense of women who are being put in this position during a debate on the subject in the House of Lords on 15th of this month.

Ilovecheese Sat 20-Nov-21 19:24:49

"Yes Doodledog I did receive support at the time.

Doodledog Sat 20-Nov-21 19:29:03

Ilovecheese

"Yes Doodledog I did receive support at the time.

Come on in, then? The water's a bit choppy at times, but the more people dipping their toes in the better.

The same old points are just being rehashed now, so more and more diverse perspectives would be good to hear. If anyone has a child/grandchild who has transitioned and wanted to talk about it, it might take some of the heat out of the situation, as I hope that people would be less 'forceful' in their responses to that.

Ilovecheese Sat 20-Nov-21 19:39:48

A short cut and paste from Lord Blencathra in the Lords before I have to log off.

"The female prison estate is currently run as a mixed-sex institution because the MoJ’s policies permit prisoners of the male sex, where they identify as transgender and fulfil certain criteria, to be allocated to the female estate and held in women’s prisons alongside vulnerable female offenders. Eligible males include those convicted of the most serious, violent and sexual offences and those with intact male genitalia."

AGAA4 Sat 20-Nov-21 19:51:29

I believe that the safety of women has to be paramount. Transwomen should not be in prison with women. I am deliberately not saying natal women.
The reason men are not put into prison with women seems obvious to me so why allow someone identifying as a woman, who still has male genitalia, to be in close contact in a prison environment with women.

MerylStreep Sat 20-Nov-21 19:52:36

I’ve found this.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/11/16/prisons-trans-inmates-lord-blencathra/

Doodledog Sat 20-Nov-21 19:55:58

I don't know this for certain, but am guessing that the MoJ will have signed up to the Stonewall 'Diversity Champion' scheme, which 'advises' large organisations (eg universities and local governments) on 'diversity'. This advice is based on a belief that 'TWAW' (ie that transwomen are women), and they will allow No Debate (their capitals, as this is one of their slogans).

Outside of the office environment, this belief also means that any man who says he is a woman can carry out intimate searches or internal examinations on a woman, who may not realise that the person doing so is, in fact male bodied. Even if he has a beard and male pattern baldness, however, she may not object as doing so is 'transphobia'.

Transwomen are, as has been said, housed in women's jails, and can also be cared for in female hospital wards, where women are ill and often very vulnerable as a result of their illness. A transwoman can also be admitted to women's refuges, which have traditionally been places where women were able to get away from men in order to feel safe after domestic abuse.

Transwomen who believe they are women may identify as such on official forms and in research statistics, so figures on eg pension inequality and health issues (and much more) are skewed. This can clearly have an impact on women, as policies are made on the basis of the results of these research projects, and will be largely detrimental to women.

Despite this, women who object are called 'pseudo-feminists' and 'transphobic'. In many workplaces, a refusal to declare a preferred pronoun (eg she/her) on an email signature can be a disciplinary offence, as it is part of the Stonewall 'advice' that employers should insist on it.

Even the word 'woman' is now under threat, and Scottish health authorities now use 'person giving birth' to describe what used to be called 'mothers'.

I know that many posters will know all this already, but for those who don't, these arguments are not about trivialities or any sort of refusal to allow people to 'live their best lives'. The vast majority of so-called 'gender-critical feminists' genuinely want them to do so - we just don't want their rights to come at the expense of women.

Doodledog Sat 20-Nov-21 19:57:40

MerylStreep

I’ve found this.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/11/16/prisons-trans-inmates-lord-blencathra/

That link won't open for me, MerylStreep. Is it possible to summarise what was said, please?

kircubbin2000 Sat 20-Nov-21 19:59:13

It was trending on Twitter at lunchtime# not our crime.

Galaxy Sat 20-Nov-21 20:44:15

Sorry Ilovecheese, I am fairly used to the cut and thrust on those threads so it probably passed me by if you had a rubbish time which is a terrible thing to say. I apologise as I didnt offer support. I will do better next time flowers

Doodledog Sat 20-Nov-21 21:00:04

The link has opened for me now, and I've had a look. Pink News is an LGBT(Q+) paper, and as such is very pro-trans in its outlook, so I'm not really surprised at the article.

The trouble is, that men who have transitioned, or those who are genuinely 'living as' women are likely to be at risk in women's jails, and there is a huge difference between them and male sex offenders who are willing to say they are women to get access to victims, and to spare themselves the hard time that sex offenders would get in a male prison.

Trying to get a fair deal for everyone is very tricky. The idea that there should be separate 'trans' wings is highly unlikely to get off the ground at a time when funding to jails is being cut, and anyway, housing 'genuine' (sorry, but I can't think of a better word) transwomen alongside male-bodied rapists and other violent offenders is bound to be dangerous for them.

What I would say is that this should be a male problem, not one that female prisoners should be expected to take on. It is men who become transwomen, and male prisons are meant to house men. Why should women, yet again, be expected to bear the brunt of what is, essentially, a male issue. Nobody wants to be locked up next to a violent sex offender, but IMO the majority of male prisoners would be better able to cope with this than the majority of female ones.

Which still leaves the question of the 'genuine' transwomen who are going to be vulnerable wherever they are, I suspect.

The thing is, if not for the ability to self-identify, we would have statistics on how many transwomen offend at all, but as it is, there can't be any stats, so there is no way of knowing if there are any 'genuine' TW in jail (in which case there would be less of a need for a policy to protect them), or if the numbers are very high.

JaneJudge Sat 20-Nov-21 21:00:30

They aren't even transwomen, they are abusive predators with motive
and they get away with it because of changes to law and guidelines regarding gender/sex and if any of us raise these issues regarding to changes in language/guidelines/law even on an internet forum we are called bigots and terfs

it is terrifying and I am really quite sick of it
Jane from Tunbridge Wells