Assigned female at birth

herefornow said-
The issue is with gender. You are assigned a gender at birth based on what is known or observed about your sex. This is where the language about 'assigned whatever at birth' is talking about.

You are not assigned a 'gender' at birth. Your sex is observed and recorded.
Even for children whose sex is not obvious at birth, medical testing can ascertain what their sex is.

grandtante don't you think it weird that someone who is female would 'define themselves as male' (& vice versa) and expect to have everyone accept that as if it is factually correct - except maybe in a few cases where it is medically relevant, and not always even then?

Help for people's mental health problems shouldn't have to involve a huge game of let's pretend by the whole of the population.

I took the trouble to read the quoted post from OLNL. I didn’t agree with most of it. Sounded like a great rant about something on Mumsnet and I wondered if someone had seen it on there and suggested they sign up on GN to post it. Have you been on GN long OLNL? If you have, I apologise for not noticing your name before.
The additional comment didn’t make sense to me but I suspect it was either insulting or a poor attempt at sarcasm.

Not seen anything of the kind here on GN oldladynewlife, you must be getting your sites mixed up.

That's what being assigned female or male at birth means to me grandtante and IMO to suggest it means anything different is ridiculous.

Herefornow

Callistemon21

It is ridiculous and worrying because someone could answer that they may have been assigned female at birth but they now identify as male so wish to turn down the appointment.
That could cause problems for them in the future if they refuse to attend.

I do understand what you are trying to say with this, and it's a relevant sentiment, but i think it more likely that trans men would respond better to the term 'assigned female at birth' than to the term 'women'. Reverting to referencing the term women, alone, surely puts this trans men at greater risk than the term being currently used?

There is often an air about these things of 'well, in that case it'll be their fault for choosing to live that way'. Much the same attitude was had about gay people and hiv back in the day.

What does it matter to you what a stock letter uses for salutation, OP? Don't you have better things to do with your life?

I've actually never met a trans person who denied that sex is real. The issue is with gender. You are assigned a gender at birth based on what is known or observed about your sex. This is where the language about 'assigned whatever at birth' is talking about.

However, if we want to talk solely about sex and the facts of sex? Did you know that actually not everyone has xx or xy chromosomes? No really, look it up. This has been proven. And 1-2% of our several billion global population is intersex. That's about 400k people in the UK.

Just food for thought.

Why does it matter? It’s all just bollocks isn’t it?

But in this case, there are no bollocks involved apart from the wording of this letter because it’s about health services for women.

We’re supposed to meekly accept this ridiculous nonsense so as not to offend a very tiny minority of people <1% who dislike the word WOMAN.

Sex matters.

Gender is all about feelings and is mostly meaningless drivel. Stop referring to Gender when you actually mean women.

You refer to gay people and how it’s simply a bad attitude problem. Lesbian women also hate this perfidious erasure of the word WOMAN too.

To me the phrase that someone was assigned female at birth should mean that there had been doubt as to whether the new-born child was a hermaphrodite or not, or that there was something wrong with the appearance of the child¨s genitals.

So I fully understand why pinkprincess finds the wording odd.

If someone chooses to define themselves as male, although clearly in possession of female genitalia then it makes sense to offer them a cervical smear test or a mammography on equal footing with those females who define themselves as female, women or girls, but that was not the original issue here, was it?

A man who identifies himself as female would be well advised to avail himself of screening for testicular cancer of cancer of the prostrate, too.

Oldladynewlife

I was born female, live as a woman, am married to a man, and have two daughters. I don’t give one, single, solitary, fake damn about how other people live their lives or what they call themselves. I am not bothered by trans people asking for kindness and respect. I am astounded at the vicious, hysterical, so called feminist anti trans rhetoric and the daily, even hourly, obsessive coverage of outrageous edge cases.

Here on mumsnet trans men are treated as race traitors who abandoned the female cause and trans women are treated as some kind of evil faith column, stealing our valor and erasing or diluting our identities as female.

It’s ridiculous and absurd and mean spirited. Parenthetically the links between authoritarian religions and reactionary governments, delusional cults like QANON, and the fostering of anti lgbtq politics and culture wars is well demonstrated. Just as racism and anti semitism were used as wedge cultural issues to create white nationalist and neo nazi solidarity (in the US and Hungary under Orban so the LGBTQ threat (and, of course, the children! The children! ) is now used as a convenient organizing tool for white nationalist movements today. it’s just dressed up Kinder Kutche Kirche for a new gullible population that lets itself be whipped into a frantic ferment to defend a way of life that is not, in fact, under threat.

Well at least the replies to you won't have you going to check that you actually wrote what you think you did in a circle of people who can read and comprehend English.. When it suits lol

Well done

Galaxy nope, no approach to me from evangelicals, fundamentalists or white supremacists. I suspect my politics wouldn’t endear me to them

You’re on gransnet at the moment, not gransnet Oldladynewlife.

vicsious, hysterical, so called feminist anti trans rhetoric…. Obsessive coverage of outrageous edge cases. That’s clearly your opinion. I disagree with you.

What’s your view on Lia Thomas being allowed to compete as a woman for example?

Has anyone received their funding from the white nationalists yet. They are so slow I am getting quite irritated.

You are all so mean for discussing the rights of women. Stop it now.

. Bless we have never heard any of that nonsense before.

I was born female, live as a woman, am married to a man, and have two daughters. I don’t give one, single, solitary, fake damn about how other people live their lives or what they call themselves. I am not bothered by trans people asking for kindness and respect. I am astounded at the vicious, hysterical, so called feminist anti trans rhetoric and the daily, even hourly, obsessive coverage of outrageous edge cases.

Here on mumsnet trans men are treated as race traitors who abandoned the female cause and trans women are treated as some kind of evil faith column, stealing our valor and erasing or diluting our identities as female.

It’s ridiculous and absurd and mean spirited. Parenthetically the links between authoritarian religions and reactionary governments, delusional cults like QANON, and the fostering of anti lgbtq politics and culture wars is well demonstrated. Just as racism and anti semitism were used as wedge cultural issues to create white nationalist and neo nazi solidarity (in the US and Hungary under Orban so the LGBTQ threat (and, of course, the children! The children! ) is now used as a convenient organizing tool for white nationalist movements today. it’s just dressed up Kinder Kutche Kirche for a new gullible population that lets itself be whipped into a frantic ferment to defend a way of life that is not, in fact, under threat.

VioletSky are you happy with this example of making space?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10626265/Uni-Virginia-swimmer-hailed-heroine-coming-second-NCAA-final-trans-rival-Lia-Thomas.html

"Meet the REAL winner: University of Virginia swimmer Emma Weyant who is Olympic silver medalist is hailed as a heroine on social media after coming second in NCAA championships to controversial trans rival Lia Thomas"

"[Thomas's] controversial victory attracted a mixed reception, with boos heard ringing out among a smattering of cheers as Thomas was handed [his] trophy.

The UPenn swimmer won the 500 yard freestyle in Atlanta in a time of 4 minutes, 33.24 seconds on Thursday evening.

Just before Lia was crowned, the crowd were notably more enthusiastic when cheering for Weyant. She swam 4:34.99. "

FarNorth it would be far more effective to send out letters addressed to Men and Transwomen. Equally letters could be addressed to Women and Transmen for cervical screening.
Some transwomen may not have ever known they have a prostate, or even live in the fantasy that with changing their gender, the prostate disappears.

Interesting reply FarNorth I asked that question earlier on but no one could answer apparently. But the answer now raises another question: if the word "man" is appropriate for prostare cancer cgecks, why is "woman" not appropriate for cervical cancer checks, uterine cancer checks and breast cancer?

Prostate Cancer UK were asked why they continue to use the word 'men' while the word 'women' is being removed from similar campaigns relating to female people. This is what they said.

Are they wrong to take that view?
If not, why are other organisations, including the NHS, prioritising 'be kind to trans people' over effective communication with female people?

But I think to a lot of women the word compromise implies loss. Loss of things they have fought hard for. Giving away what is theirs.

Do you mean like not getting raped and sexually assaulted in somewhere safe like..... erm..... a prison? Or a refuge? Or.... wait for it.... your hospital bed?
Or do you mean we should compromise on things like not getting attacked and beaten up because we hold a peaceful demonstration and walk down a street with a placard? A bit like women had to do in 1928 when they wanted to be heard and seen?
Or do you think we should be willing to compromise on things like the word "woman" being erased from feminine hygiene products, public health literature and health manuals so that were actually described as the sum of our body parts?
Or should we compromise on being told that we will lose our jobs, careers, livelihoods and reputations and face a court of law should we dare to question that a human being cannot change their biological sex?
Or should we compromise that, when a "person with a penis" has sexually assaulted or raped us and suddenly announces before his court appearance that, actually he's "a woman" that we must address him as "she/her" or face a criminal charge for "misgendering" our attacker?

Which of these do you suggest we compromise on VioletSky?

VioletSky what is your definition of the word 'woman'?

Compromise!
When a cuckoo chick settles in another bird’s nest and allows the chick entitled to be there to stay and receive the food and care to which it is entitled, that’s compromise- practised by many transwomen.
When a cuckoo chick takes over a nest and ejects with no compunction, the chicken that’s entitled to be there, that’s the action of an ill-intentioned transwoman who wants the only compromise to come from others.

No. We do not consent. Using a different phrase to get us to consent isnt going to work. We are saying no.

Also to add to that, I think there is another way language needs to change in these discussions.

I use the word "compromise" a lot because I thought it was a positive word, you know, compromise and make everyone happy.

But I think to a lot of women the word compromise implies loss. Loss of things they have fought hard for. Giving away what is theirs.

So make space or create space might be better because the implication is to add too, be bigger, be more than we are. That might feel more comfortable

Galaxy

*Mmm I don't know, I am not sure that trans people have a duty to do that. Some men hurt and rape women, is it your husbands or sons responsibility to stand up and say not in my name. Obviously great if they do but I am not sure I expect it of all men.
I don’t think men, or women if it comes to that stand up and say, Not in my Name, but
if I suggested that all men were rapists, there would justifiably be an outcry from men (and women) that not all men are rapists and those who are should be punished.
When they see the damage some ill-intentioned transwomen are causing, it would be good if those trans who deplore the damage were to make it clear that not all TW are the same and add their support to those trying to stop the damage.
A few thousand acknowledged TW marching With women in support of the campaign against violence against women and girls. Or even a less physical action e.g A few thousand Tweets from the silent majority of tw in support of what JKR or Maya Forstater or Kathleen Stock have been saying.

Herefornow

The best thing we CAN do is allow space for trans people to live their ordinary every day lives as who they are which is mostly individual like the rest of us.

The main problem is that the gender nonconforming are only an estimated 1% of British society. While in actual numbers its a lot, its not enough for some to change their lives to accomodate them.

If you look at the issues discussed on these threads, even where there are solutions people here agree on, out there, are a lot of voices saying that we shouldn't need to spend time and money changing policies and sometimes premises in order to "placate" trans people.

I suppose its simple for me because I accept trans women are women and so, the cost financially to support changes to enable women to live their best lives is worthwhile.

Some of the changes that have happened have gone a bit far in some areas, losing terms for women and being a bit moderate I'd say that actually, what existed should more easily have just been added too instead. At least people are trying though. I think that it will eventually settle into something that is recognisable to both trans women and women.

The only reason I think it is important to differentiate between trans women and women, is that allthough I believe we are all women and share commonalities in womanhood, like being more likely victims of discrimination and violence, as well as the things we all love about being a woman... There are differences between us, what we go through emotionally and our medical needs that need a targeted approach. There are also differences that affect thing like sports.

The process to legally change gender has been deemed too hard by some trans people and too easy by others and also there are risks of mistakes being made. The whole system from beginning to end needs to be safeguarded to keep everyone safe but I don't know what can be done to prevent men abusing the system as predators or to prevent people making the wrong choice to transition. I don't think we can eradicate those things completely but I think it's important to try, especially given the amount of attention this draws and the fear that has resulted.

Anyway I've lost my train of thought and tangents are happening but this is where I have currently ended up after talking through things on these threads.

Mmm I dont know, I am not sure that trans people have a duty to do that. Some men hurt and rape women, is it your husbands or sons responsibility to stand up and say not in my name. Obviously great if they do but I am not sure I expect it of all men.
For me its simple no men in womens spaces, women dont consent to that. And you cant change sex.