In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

Theologically the Head of the Anglican Church is Jesus Christ. The reigning monarch is the Supreme Governor.

Absolutely church and state should be separated - I have been banging on about this for decades.

Why should there be faith schools that everyone has to fund? Why should I pay for children to be taught all this stuff? It is thoroughly iniquitous. Let people indoctrinate their own children in whatever religion they choose - but don't ask me to pay for it or to be happy about all the children in these schools receiving the same message. Two and two is four in one lesson, then Genesis in the next, without ever making the distinction that one is proven fact, and the other is belief/allegory. I have no problem with children learning about religion as long as all the statements are prefaced by: this is what some people believe.

All state school should be non-aligned.

Glorianny

Thanks for some interesting posts.
The sectarian issue reminded me of a friend who taught in Liverpool and thought it would be a great experience for her class to visit the new RC cathedral. When they got there some of the class refused to go in and others cried because they thought if they went in they would go straight to hell. She hadn't realised how much the Protestants hated the RCs.

I think that is more prevalent in some areas, as we have witnessed over the years, but most people in the UK are not that bothered imo.
I don't know what religion my friends or neighbours are, if they believe in anything at all.

Members of our family are of different religions, but not particularly fervent adherents.

biglouis

King Charles II sincerely believed that he was chosen by God to rule and he came to a rather sticky end! Beheaded by a posse of his subjects - the politicos. Time to get rid of all the religious mumbo jumbo and have a simple scandi type inauguration. A quick flick civil ceremony.

That was Charles1.
Charles 11 was followed by his brother James who was a Catholic. He was forced to surrender the throne to his protestant daughter Mary and her husband William.
Charles's don't have good track records as kings.

Thanks for some interesting posts.
The sectarian issue reminded me of a friend who taught in Liverpool and thought it would be a great experience for her class to visit the new RC cathedral. When they got there some of the class refused to go in and others cried because they thought if they went in they would go straight to hell. She hadn't realised how much the Protestants hated the RCs.

King Charles II sincerely believed that he was chosen by God to rule and he came to a rather sticky end! Beheaded by a posse of his subjects - the politicos. Time to get rid of all the religious mumbo jumbo and have a simple scandi type inauguration. A quick flick civil ceremony.

*Witzend Fri 18-Nov-22 17:54:08
Given that so many people are not practising Christians anyway (though they may describe themselves as nominally C of E) I’m not sure that disestablishment would result in a secular society anyway. Other faiths are still very active in the U.K*

Surely a secular society is one where there is no special treatment given to religious groups. They are treated just the same as any other organisation. We need organisations that focus on morality and ethics.

Fleurpepper

If choice is to be given in the form of education about all religions, without favour- then perhaps I could agree. Not sure.

But the other alternative has to be taught to, about humanism and atheism, and that both can be just as worthy options- without loss of morality.

Yes, these are are taught in many secondary schools now.

Better informed than in the dark.

Comparative religion is taught in most schools now and is an option at GCSE too. That wasn't the case many years ago so that is a progressive step.

If choice is to be given in the form of education about all religions, without favour- then perhaps I could agree. Not sure.

But the other alternative has to be taught to, about humanism and atheism, and that both can be just as worthy options- without loss of morality.

Totally agree with OP. And time to get rid of the influence of the one CoE Chruch in the Lords too. Religion is a private matter- and should have no influence on politics, education, the Law, and society at large.

correct, "would be the worst for it had I not had the chance" not "power"

Urmstongran

Here, here Brahumbug.
Keep religion out of schools, I’m my opinion. If parents wish their children to follow a faith, teach them and go with them to places of worship during their evenings and weekends.

I think its valuable to give children knowledge and choices, Urmstongran across the board (I mean multi-cultural).

Its not necessarily best to have a situation where children ONLY have a view on religion from parents who have very strong views ..leaves the children with no critical appraisals or choices to make if they lack information.

To me its part of choices within a framework of ethics as well as faith, and as I've made clear above, includes humanism.

Better informed than in the dark. Better to begin to see how different people are in their opinion and ethics over the world and why, then ignorant of them. What makes people from different backgrounds do what they do? How far can we accept difference, where do we draw lines. As a child brought up in an entirely atheist family, I'm glad to have had the opportunity to have some very benign Christian introductions at school, including singing the Messiah in our choir. I'm a Quaker now, no creed, sit alongside in our meetings with people of more buddhist interests, no leaders - and would be the power for it had I not had the chance at school. It wasn't rammed down my throat.

Here, here Brahumbug.
Keep religion out of schools, I’m my opinion. If parents wish their children to follow a faith, teach them and go with them to places of worship during their evenings and weekends.

sandelf

Oh I agree, Blossoming - sorry it has upset you. The bread and the wine become the body and blood 'to us' - they symbolise flesh and blood. Until a couple of years ago I took the view that it is all mumbo jumbo. It is, but it helps when life gets so hard you cannot cope, and must cope at the same time. 'Faith' is an act of will and is not knowledge. Those who know they are good and those who can cope alone with everything life can throw at them have no need of it. It is for the weak, and fallible. IMHO

Many of those with a sense of a spirit at work as part of ur lives have not creeds or vicars or hierarchy, sandelf.

"It is for the weak, and fallible". I always smile when I hear this. Having a faith is a challenge as well as grace!

No, it is not an act of will for me: it is a calling that demands much and gives much back.

I don't like being patronised, which you are of course, perhaps as a challenge? Just sad you cant be open to the feelings of others.

Brahumbug

Religion is a poor source of morality. Secular humanism is demonstrably superior. The sooner religious schools are abolished the better.

👍

Religion is a poor source of morality. Secular humanism is demonstrably superior. The sooner religious schools are abolished the better.

LadyHonoriaDedlock

Lathyrus, there are more Orange walks in Glasgow every than there are in Belfast, and they are a bloody nuisance. There was a nasty incident in Govan a couple of years ago where a nationalist band tried to parade and was set on by unionists with petrol b ombs, amongst other things.

Quite agree. They tried to have one in Aberdeen once, but the lead balloon effect meant that they gave up, and quite right too.

In Scotland, the only church which has schools is the Roman Catholic church. The Church of Scotland, the Scottish Episcopal church and other Christian churches do not run schools, and so schools are known as denominational (RC) and non-denominational (everyone else). (I think other religions are permitted to set up schools, but don't quote me on that.) In some places there are shared campuses with both kinds of school, and that seems to me to be a good way forward towards making everyone the same and leaving religion to the churches.

In this area there are some RC primary schools but then everyone goes to the local secondary schools - also a good thing IMO.

There will be many different experiences and mine is not as has been described. I taught in two Church schools - Protestant - and in neither of them were any pages ripped out of books! One was a tiny city school and was actually next to the church. The children did go into the Church once a week and a short service replaced assembly. Many parents would join these occasions plus other members of the congregation. Any celebrations in the school were supported by the congregation and they did practical things such as making cakes etc for school functions.
The other school was a much larger school and we only held celebrations such as the Carol concert or nativity play in the church. Both the schools were very popular and had children from a wide area as parents considered the schools to have better moral standards. Neither school had more religious input than the non Church schools I had taught in.

I think I’m getting in a muddle with Unionist, Nationalist, Orange men, Catholics, etc. Together with the geography element of west and east.

I hold my hands up to ignorance but I am interested.

So are Catholics broadly pro independence? Or just south west Catholics?

I’ll start with one question at a time. Or maybe we need a different thread. Or perhaps direct me to a (simple) site, preferably a fairly neutral summing up if that’s possible.

Lathyrus, there are more Orange walks in Glasgow every than there are in Belfast, and they are a bloody nuisance. There was a nasty incident in Govan a couple of years ago where a nationalist band tried to parade and was set on by unionists with petrol b ombs, amongst other things.

It is true that some faith schools show better pupil achievement than other schools but research shows that is primarily because they are covertly selective. They usually take fewer deprived children and more children of ambitious and better off parents. The National Foundation for Educational Research found that the difference in achievement was based on intake (see their evidence to the Parliamentary Education and Skills Select Committee in 2003). That aside, religion has a lot to answer for in the terrible things which have happened in the world - not only in history but in modern times (for example, the treatment of pregnant girls by Irish religious orders, massacres in India and Myanmar, civil strife in Northern Ireland, abuse by priests, etc.). Not all of that can be ascribed to 'extremists'. In many cases separation by religion is the same as ethnic separation and means children grow up knowing little of other groups. Faith schools (like 'public' schools) weaken social cohesion. A significant danger of faith schools is that they may exclude access to other ideas (a right enshrined in Article 13, Convention on the Rights of the Child, adopted by the UN in1989). A late friend - a qualified teacher - taught briefly in a faith school which systematically tore pages deemed to be unsuitable out of text books. Personally, I would want all children to attend secular schools with no religious instruction or assemblies (abolishing the 1944 Act requirement) and to receive religious instruction if they so wished out of school. In the interests of social cohesion I would also like to see fee-paying schools abolished.

Wandering apostrophe- apologies!!

Sandybeth

I think to move away from the Church would be the wrong thing to. It gives us a good grounding on how to live our lives. None of us is perfect but we can all ask for forgiveness. The lack of morality in our country is despicable.

Would it make a lot of difference to many people?

Christian's will not stop going to church.
I know congregations are declining but is that more noticeable in Scotland and Wales than England?