In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

Oh, please! Give Charles a break
👏👏👏

sandelf

Oh I agree, Blossoming - sorry it has upset you. The bread and the wine become the body and blood 'to us' - they symbolise flesh and blood. Until a couple of years ago I took the view that it is all mumbo jumbo. It is, but it helps when life gets so hard you cannot cope, and must cope at the same time. 'Faith' is an act of will and is not knowledge. Those who know they are good and those who can cope alone with everything life can throw at them have no need of it. It is for the weak, and fallible. IMHO

I'm not sure if the Catholic church still believes in transubstantiation?

It can bring comfort and help to those who need it

Given that so many people are not practising Christians anyway (though they may describe themselves as nominally C of E) I’m not sure that disestablishment would result in a secular society anyway. Other faiths are still very active in the U.K., and the poor old C of E is (to me) pretty inoffensive anyway.

I forget who said its motto should be ‘Tea and cakes or death!’ - Eddie Izzard? - but at any rate, that is surely not far off.

I think to move away from the Church would be the wrong thing to. It gives us a good grounding on how to live our lives. None of us is perfect but we can all ask for forgiveness. The lack of morality in our country is despicable.

I'm in favour of a gradual move to a secular society, and so a dis-establishment of the C of E seems the right way to go.
It should have nothing to do with sectarianism.

I’m atheist as is my family. Growing up in Scotland I was banned from bringing any RC into the house. My best friends always seemed to be RC - I couldnt care about anyones beliefs just so long as they don’t try to convert me! Sectarianism is still rife just look at Glasgow Rangers and Glasgow Celtic football teams and their clashes over religion.

I'm writing here as one who is not a monarchist nor a theist, and who is in principle opposed to having an established church. I would also like to make it clear that I am not, and never have been, an adherent of the cult of Diana, though beyond that I do not intend to go. So, on that basis…

Oh, please! Give Charles a break. His mother has barely been buried, and after all those frustrating years of being on standby to take over her job he's now in it up to his eyeballs. If he, many years ago now, sought comfort in the arms of the woman he had always loved and who understood him in ways that his own father, a "man's man" as a military one-time bf of mine who met him said, did not. It's not like he's been a reckless rake, carousing around the city in the small hours of the morning. He has some funny views on some things, and some sound views on others, and he may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he's always been a gentle and thoughtful man, kit seems to me. As a person I rather like him. Consider some of his predecessors who have held the role of head of the Church of England: Edward VII was hardly an angel. George IV? <splutter>!

As a wise man didn't quite say once, "let she who is without sin cast the first stone".

Oh I agree, Blossoming - sorry it has upset you. The bread and the wine become the body and blood 'to us' - they symbolise flesh and blood. Until a couple of years ago I took the view that it is all mumbo jumbo. It is, but it helps when life gets so hard you cannot cope, and must cope at the same time. 'Faith' is an act of will and is not knowledge. Those who know they are good and those who can cope alone with everything life can throw at them have no need of it. It is for the weak, and fallible. IMHO

Blossoming

Good grief Sandelf, what a horrible verse! Eating flesh and drinking blood, I’m glad I’m an atheist!

It's symbolic, Blossoming

The Last Supper 🙂 is of significant because Jesus identified the bread and wine as symbolic of his own body and blood.

Aldom

FarNorth

You know that the CofE exists only in England?
The CofS has no connection with the monarch.
I don't know about Wales and N Ireland.

The Church in Wales was disestablished on 31st March 1920.
My husband was ordained priest in the Church in Wales.

And Aldom, apologies for not rtwt!

Our vicar is an avowed republican.

FarNorth

You know that the CofE exists only in England?
The CofS has no connection with the monarch.
I don't know about Wales and N Ireland.

I should have rtwt first, FarNorth
the Church in Wales is not established either.

AIBU In thinking that it is time that this country separated church and state?

Just a reminder that when you say this country you are referring to England only, Glorianny.

I believe that separation is desirable
And inevitable at some point in the future.

However, I don't think that the debate should be influenced by the past behaviour of one monarch who was unhappily married.

It's far more wide-reaching than that.

I believe that separation is desirable. I do not believe that you can be the defender of all faiths and be in a church totally interconnected with the state. Its not right Bishops should sit in the H of Lords, makes a mockery of "all faiths". No one creed should dominate our country.

I do think however that schools should teach the basics of different faiths, and humanism, that we might better understand each other.

Good grief Sandelf, what a horrible verse! Eating flesh and drinking blood, I’m glad I’m an atheist!

Blossoming

WhenIWasYourAge yes, there is quite a complex history reflected in that oath! I believe there are laws involved which specify the monarch must make those promises upon accession. Laws can be changed.

So they can, Blossoming, and we can only hope that they will be!

We have ALL broken the rules - that is rather the point. Religion is not for the 'good'.

We do not presume to come to this your table,
O merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness,
but in your abundant and great mercies.
We are not worthy so much as to gather up
the crumbs under your table; but you are the same Lord
whose character is always to have mercy.
Grant us, therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat
the flesh of your dear Son Jesus Christ,
and to drink his blood, that our sinful bodies
may be made clean by his body,
and our souls washed through his most precious blood,
and that we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us.

Lathyrus

Oh read too hastily. I’m not sure about after the funeral. I’ll look it up.🙂

It's not just the west of Scotland that has the Orange Lodge it was very strong in the North West of England when I was growing up. Introduced by Irish immigrants.
We had the marches and fife bands and the Larkhall and Glasgow lodges came and matched with them.
One small town has actually had the Riot act read because of fights between Orange and Roman Catholics and a priest was stoned.
It does seem to have died down now and the Blue Star club is less prominent.
My late mother told of going into the RC church with friends and having to cover their heads. gasps were heard and when she looked her friend had a big badge of King Billy in the front of her beret.

WhenIWasYourAge yes, there is quite a complex history reflected in that oath! I believe there are laws involved which specify the monarch must make those promises upon accession. Laws can be changed.

I think also that it is a good time to divide CofE from the Monarch.
Partly because of the diverse cultures and religions we now have in Britain and also because it is outdated.
Yes like many Monarchs and a lot of the public broken vows he made on his first marriage if he ever meant to keep them.
I don't believe in the divine right of Kings and think he is a mere mortal like the rest of us as his behaviour displays.

I assume that the oath about the Church of Scotland dates from the time of the Union. Scotland was to keep its own Presbyterian church as well as its own legal and education systems, and I think that bit might have been put into the oath to dispel any perceived threat from episcopalianism.

Having said that, I can't see that there now needs to be any link between individual churches and the crown, and if King Charles wants to be defender of all faiths, fair enough.

The sectarianism in the West of Scotland is thankfully not as violent as in Northern Ireland, Lathyrus, but is still a horrible and quite intolerable thing. Here in the north-east there is a sizeable Catholic population too, and sectarianism on either side is not a problem. Here, the question "Which school did you go to?" is one relating to geography, not religion, as it can be in the west.

This is the oath.

I, Charles the Third, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of My other Realms and Territories, King, Defender of the Faith, do faithfully promise and swear that I shall inviolably maintain and preserve the Settlement of the true Protestant Religion as established by the Laws made in Scotland in prosecution of the Claim of Right and particularly by an Act intituled “An Act for securing the Protestant Religion and Presbyterian Church Government” and by the Acts passed in the Parliament of both Kingdoms for Union of the two Kingdoms, together with the Government, Worship, Discipline, Rights and Privileges of the Church of Scotland. So help me God.

So outdated and inappropriate these days.

I’m an atheist so he won’t be bothered about me, but I’m not bothered about him either!

PaddyAnn that’s interesting. I’ve always been aware of the often violent sectarianism but I didn’t know Charles had vowed to uphold the Church of Scotland.

Grantanow

Of course the CofE should be disestablished. There's no reason why a bunch of bishops should sit in the Lord's or why we should have all the religious flummory around Royal events. More widely, we should get rid of religious schools and the 1944 Act requirement to have religious assembly in schools.

I completely agree. Over half the population in England don’t profess any religion, and only a tiny percentage attend a CofE church.
It is totally irrelevant to have bishops sitting and voting in the House of Lords, in a basically secular country.
Disestablishment hasn’t done any harm to Welsh or Irish churches.

I grew up in Glasgow and am well aware of the sectarian intolerance that paddyann mentions. I was hoping that things have improved but while Orange Walks are still happening there will still be headbangers who will latch onto any excuse to vent their spleen. I will be interested to see if Charles chooses to be anointed at his coronation. That can be seen as the monarch being chosen by God. Being head of the C of E means little to three of the four nations so perhaps Charles will do the sensible thing and do away with this part of his reign.

Surely he could affirm support for everyone to follow their own faith or none.

The monarch is head of the CofE, tho, but I don't know what that means.