Trans Teacher

It is pretty obvious from a lot of the posts that a lot of people who are horrified by what this man is doing see this as a fetish but if a woman walked into a classroom with a short back and sides, wearing a man's suit and brogues, it would be ok even if she were queer and clearly demonstrating that with her attire.

That's a bit of a leap. Some of the earlier posts may have suggested that the skirt has sexual/fetishistic connotations, but that is probably because of the routine conflation of sexuality, gender and sex - that sort of thing happens all the time.

There are, however, several steps that I haven't seen between that confusion (which has to be worse for 8 year olds) and people being 'horrified' at a man in a traditionally 'female's' garment but not at a lesbian dressing in a butch manner. I may have missed it, but I don't think I've seen anything that suggests that at all. Yes, the conversation was diverted into the history of women wearing trousers, but on the whole the conversation has centred on the messages in the classroom, not that female trouser-wearers are gay, or that male skirt-wearers are fetishists.

Also, if a lesbian or gay man is 'out' in the classroom, so what? the idea that this would influence children to 'become gay' went out with Section 28. Sexuality is entirely different from 'gender', and conflating the two just confuses things further.

Children have had a tough time over the last few years and it continues with so many schools being closed because of structural problems. Their education has, in many instances, been chaotic and continues to be disrupted.

The last thing they need is a teacher making it 'all about him' to demonstrate a point about gender issues. They need a teacher who will make their education all about them.

Man wearing skirt shows that the 'gender' issues being pushed at children don't have to apply.
Man wearing a skirt is still a man, not a woman.
Children doing/liking non-stereotypical things do not have to 'identify' as anything other than their real sex.
I would agree if we weren't in the current climate where people mix up sex and 'gender', and children have confusing messages thrust at them. If they are told that drag queens are women and that if they 'feel like' a woman they should 'transition', how are they going to sort all of this out in their minds?

I think it is fundamentally important to safety that children (and adults) can believe the evidence of their eyes and trust their instincts. The more confusing it all gets, the harder that will become.

I really think that if someone could tell me what it means to 'feel like a woman', or to 'be in the wrong body', and how someone can 'transition' to a different sex, what it means for there to be '100 different genders' etc then I might feel differently. It is all so confusing for me as a socially aware adult - how must it feel when you are 8? I know that children absorb messages much more easily than adults because their brains are more malleable, which is why I think that children should be protected from all of this until they are old enough to ask questions and consider the answers for themselves, and old enough to have developed more instincts about danger and agency over things like who touches them and what is comfortable for them.

As it is, it feels very worrying. Trans 'allies' claim that 'feeling like the opposite sex' is real, but don't say what it actually means, or what it means to 'change gender', which is confusing. The message is that if you 'feel like a girl' you should become one. But at the same time, you can dress 'like a girl' and still be a man if you 'feel like one'. None of it makes sense.

I am not suggesting that the skirt in and of itself makes a difference - it is a garment with no magical powers. What I am saying is that it is yet another confusing message to give children, and when they are confused they are at risk.

My 9 year old DGD said they thought they were’bi’ - hells bells - where do they get this stuff from?

I have a nine year old granddaughter too, and her twin, my nine year old grandson. Neither of them have ever even mentioned such an idea, and like you, I wonder where children get these ideas from. They know about being gay because their uncle is gay, and they know that people who are gay can get married, have children, and live perfectly normally in much the same way as everyone else. They understand adoption because their cousin is adopted, our granddaughter announced she was going ‘to adopt someone’ later on, but they also know that a man and a woman are required to make a baby. ‘Why hasn’t T got a mummy?’ ‘He has, she just couldn’t look after him so Uncle and Uncle adopted him and they look after him and they’re his daddies now.’ These things children neeed to know, do they really need to know about being bi unless there is someone in their family who regularly brings men, then women, to family gatherings? Even then, all that’s needed is, ‘it’s auntie’s/uncle’s friend.’
Why is life made so complicated for children today? And who’s making it complicated? I’m concerned it’s coming from schools to be honest, and men wearing skirts isn’t going to help.

If I've read your post correctly, Farnorth, that is what I am saying.

I can remember my old boss complaining bitterly when I wore a 3 piece skirt suit to work because I was trying to emulate a man and suggesting I stuck to pretty dresses. Equally he made it quite clear that he would not accept trousers in the office. This was in the early 80's. It never occurred to me that what I wore would make anybody think I was trying to be anything else other than me, a female. I feel women have fought long and hard to choose what they wish to wear and that men should be accorded the same rights within the same environments.

I can tell you now, most boys would not, wear dresses even if you offered them a bribe.

I'm not sure that is something which will remain so. Young people are far more open minded about things and it wouldn't take a lot for young people to accept skirts on boys if young people in the lower years at school could easily choose to wear skirts rather than trousers.
As a young boy my child would allow his sisters to dress him in skirts and he would go out in them quite happily. He doesn't choose to wear them in this 30's but if you ask him, he is not the slightest embarrassed at the thought of wearing them. He has never thought it was right to judge a book by its cover and I am proud of him for that.
It is pretty obvious from a lot of the posts that a lot of people who are horrified by what this man is doing see this as a fetish but if a woman walked into a classroom with a short back and sides, wearing a man's suit and brogues, it would be ok even if she were queer and clearly demonstrating that with her attire.

Yet another excellent post Dickens.

For all we know, Mr Teacher may be in the process of becoming Miss Teacher. There is a reason why he's chosen to wear a skirt, but we don't know - and neither does the OP - what it is. So at 'face-value' a man is flouting convention and he's doing it in a climate which is fuelled by controversy which has the potential to impact on the already disrupted education of children.

Leaving aside the argument that both men and women should be equally entitled to wear the clothes of the opposite sex, his wearing of a skirt - defying the current convention - is wrong simply because as a teacher his first priority should be the welfare and education of his pupils. Making a 'point', taking a 'stand' in the adult world of commerce / business is one thing and, FWIW, one I'd go along with... but it's a completely different dynamic when you are working in an environment that is totally centred around children.

I don't think his pupils are going to be mentally scarred by seeing him in a skirt, some might think it's a bit of a giggle even, but that's not the point - which is that he's focused on himself and not the children.

Man wears skirt to teach primary children in an atmosphere where 'gender' issues are being pushed at them in various ways, and they are told that 'gender' can change, regardless of sex = Not Fine At All.

This. My stance exactly. Apart from anything else, I think most children, if they are not made to conform to stereotypes will make their own decisions at a later date when they are more able to do so.

Man wearing skirt shows that the 'gender' issues being pushed at children don't have to apply.
Man wearing a skirt is still a man, not a woman.
Children doing/liking non-stereotypical things do not have to 'identify' as anything other than their real sex.

It depends what the skirt is about - is it about wishing to transition to being a woman (outwardly - not at a cellular level) or is it about a fetish that turns him on (in the classroom? - hell no!).

I find it hard to untangle these two things.

One one level I think that the more people of either gender wear what the heck they want, the less fuss will be made about gender. But either way, in school and acting as a professional person some sort of decorum is required appropriate to the setting.

My 9 year old DGD said they thought they were "bi" - hell's bells - where do they get this stuff from? Makes me a bit sick really - when did it suddenly become important to have a label? When did children stop having the chance to just be children?

I find all that rather depressing.

Ashcombe

^...As for you breaking ground by wearing trousers in the 1970s, maybe it depends on where you lived and the background you are from....^

I started teaching in a high school in Luton in 1972 where female staff regularly wore trousers to school. Two years later, I moved to a high school in Staffordshire where the Headteacher tried to prevent women wearing trousers to work! So, in some places it was considered groundbreaking.

I dare say. I really don't want to get sidetracked into anecdotes about trousers, as they are not the point of the thread, but what people wear at work is not the same as what they wear in their own time (including the skirt which is the point of the thread).

Glorianny claimed that it was illegal for women to wear trousers in the past, that her mother was shocked at centre zips in the 70s as they were male dress, and that it was women like her (*G*) who bravely changed the world by striding forth in her jeans.

That is very different from a bossy HT saying that women shouldn't wear them to school. And it doesn't chime with Glorianny saying she had some fashionable women's trousers in 1964 either. It's all a distraction, and avoids engaging with the other points on the thread.

GN always say when they have edited a post (or more usually a title). It would be very unusual for any site admin to edit the wording of posts without making it clear that they have done so.

...As for you breaking ground by wearing trousers in the 1970s, maybe it depends on where you lived and the background you are from....

I started teaching in a high school in Luton in 1972 where female staff regularly wore trousers to school. Two years later, I moved to a high school in Staffordshire where the Headteacher tried to prevent women wearing trousers to work! So, in some places it was considered groundbreaking.

So it's more than "just a skirt" - it's a man's ego and his self-centredness. And that is the problem rather more than the skirt spot on Dickens.

Yesterday at 20:40 G posted
It seems very odd that boys can be allowed to wear dresses girls can be allowed to wear trousers, women teachers can be allowed to wear trousers, but men teachers cannot be allowed to wear skirts. That's equality in my book.
My guess is they posted too quickly, or it was a Freudian slip.
At 20:42 G corrected it to
But It's definitely NOT equality in my book!!
I don’t think GN are that quick to notice our typos, or perhaps they thought the first post was correct and an affirmation of the man’s stupidity.

Gloriany, I would like to know the name of the school please. I can tell you now, most boys would not, wear dresses even if you offered them a bribe.

The boys leaving my GCs school last summer all wore dresses on their last day- uniform dresses.
Despite the help of Mr Google, I can find no evidence of this, and pictures would surely have made the news, or FB or X.

The boys leaving my GCs school last summer all wore dresses on their last day- uniform dresses.
Yes, on the last day it is often a free for all. Like the medieval festival/Feast of Fools, it is a day for topsy turvy but safe rebellion. It's not about every day though - on January 2nd (or the first day of next term) life goes back to normal.

*It seems very odd that boys can be allowed to wear dresses
girls can be allowed to wear trousers, women teachers can be allowed to wear trousers, but men teachers cannot be allowed to wear skirts.That's not equality in my book.*
Boys don't usually wear dresses, do they? Just on special 'festival' days. As we've done to death, women and girls wearing trousers is a long-established tradition, so not 'making a point', which an adult male wearing a skirt is doing. It's not about equality - everyone can please themselves out of school, but in school they wear what is appropriate for their sex, which in the case of women and girls has included trousers for a very long time.

Funny !!! GN is for some reason editing my posts (and I do see the joke!)
But It's definitely NOT equality in my book!!
I've been busy all evening, so maybe something happened that I didn't see, but this makes no sense to me What has been edited?

Enidd

What type of shoes was he wearing? Also was he wearing a blouse or a shirt? Sorry I’ve got to ask…

White trainers and socks, I hope.

But It's definitely NOT equality in my book!!

No it’s not equality in the book of anyone who persistently puts males first. I get that.

I think he’s wrong, to bring his fetish or his desire for attention, into a primary school, but typical of the “you can’t stop me” attitude exhibited by males taking selfies in female toilets.

I think the head should have had a whole school assembly and pointed out that Mr X has decided to wear a skirt, so can we all take a good look. That would have satisfied his desire for attention and spoilt the ‘shock element’ of his behaviour.

The head should have added that any boys who want to be like Mr X and wear a skirt are welcome to do so as long as it is a school uniform skirt.
I often find that giving children permission to do something they think would be a clever challenge puts all but the most stupid off doing it.

What type of shoes was he wearing? Also was he wearing a blouse or a shirt? Sorry I’ve got to ask…

Ilovecheese

Zip front trousers are fine when one's stomach is still flat.

😁

Funny !!! GN is for some reason editing my posts (and I do see the joke!)
But It's definitely NOT equality in my book!!

icanhandthemback

^*Man wears skirt to teach primary children = okay(ish), but don't expect them to conform to uniform rules in secondary.^

I don't think it will be long before secondary schools will be allowing boys to wear appropriate skirts if they choose.

*Man wears skirt to teach primary children in an atmosphere where 'gender' issues are being pushed at them in various ways, and they are told that 'gender' can change, regardless of sex = Not Fine At All.

^This. My stance exactly. Apart from anything else, I think most children, if they are not made to conform to stereotypes will make their own decisions at a later date when they are more able to do so.

The boys leaving my GCs school last summer all wore dresses on their last day- uniform dresses.
It seems very odd that boys can be allowed to wear dresses
girls can be allowed to wear trousers, women teachers can be allowed to wear trousers, but men teachers cannot be allowed to wear skirts.That's not equality in my book.

*Man wears skirt to teach primary children = okay(ish), but don't expect them to conform to uniform rules in secondary.

I don't think it will be long before secondary schools will be allowing boys to wear appropriate skirts if they choose.

*Man wears skirt to teach primary children in an atmosphere where 'gender' issues are being pushed at them in various ways, and they are told that 'gender' can change, regardless of sex = Not Fine At All.

^This. My stance exactly. Apart from anything else, I think most children, if they are not made to conform to stereotypes will make their own decisions at a later date when they are more able to do so.

As ever, a good post Iam64.
I was a teacher. It was never about me. It was always about the children.
I think that is the case for most teachers. But it’s not the case for this one teacher, who it appears, wants the focus of attention to be on himself.