Ex son in law

Thank you for the apology, Dickens.
My penultimate year of teaching the Friday afternoon class was Art; my final year it was French, with assistance from a French mother who helped unpaid.

I agree Iam he has given his permission for the children to be taken out of the country for a holiday and almost at the last minute has deliberately thrown a spanner in the works to prevent that holiday from taking place.

A spiteful and unpleasant individual who appears to have no care for his own children.

I hope the holiday goes ahead as planned GrannyIvy. It would be good if you could let us know.

Iam64

I’m not disagreeing with you NotSpaghetti - but what a way to have to view this. Mum ‘handed ammunition to dad’. Only a totally unreasonable parent would do what this man did. He could have said to mum, don’t do this again or I’ll object. No he writes to school setting out the legal position, putting school in a very difficult position.
Best of luck to mum and children

No he writes to school setting out the legal position, putting school in a very difficult position.

Quite.

Schools really don't need this to deal with do they... with all the other pressures they are under.

Exactly - I totally agree Iam64 - I suppose (like you) I'm aware what lengths too many people (like him) do to keep on controlling...

Only a totally unreasonable parent would do what this man did - yes, totally agree. But once we know we are dealing with a totally unreasonable parent we can't behave as though they are an ordinary person.

I suppose I just feel that these people are so completely unreasonable that you need to be super careful all the time - and yes, it's exhausting and frustrating but if you know you are "perfect" according to your agreement (and keep a record of when they are not) you eventually will be in a safer, happier and more manageable place.

I too wish mum and children well.

I’m not disagreeing with you NotSpaghetti - but what a way to have to view this. Mum ‘handed ammunition to dad’. Only a totally unreasonable parent would do what this man did. He could have said to mum, don’t do this again or I’ll object. No he writes to school setting out the legal position, putting school in a very difficult position.
Best of luck to mum and children

The point isn't what the children would be missing - The point is that the mum has handed ammunition to dad.

Suck up the mistake and don't fall into the trap (as that is what it probably was) again!

eazybee

Please. Not again.
School days are closely timetabled, and normal routines are not suspended just because it is half-term.

I apologise for being irritating.

We also stuck to the normal timetable - but we didn't do any work that was 'demandingly academic' for want of a better way of putting it. That's what I was getting at.

It was a boarding-school in the middle of the countryside and there were pupils who had long journeys ahead of them - the local train station had timetables which meant that those pupils had to leave before the end of the day, and they were always given permission because the lessons were tailored to take account of it being the last day of term. Homework had been set already in advance of the last day.

I realise however that it might be completely different now.

I hope you can sort it out.
The main thing is to be able to enjoy the holiday, without any of this hanging over you all.
Good luck!

If the court order says both parents must give permission for any time out of school does this cover trips off site, hospital appointments.? This causes extra work in school because some parents insist on being sent copies of every permission slip, separately, and then delay signing or write sarcastic letters demanding explanations as the educational value of the activities.
Your daughter needs to comply with the Court order to the letter, but keep an accurate account of every incidence of his disruptive behaviour, then seek to get the Order modified because of the disruption it is causing to the children, her and family life.
Also:
but this is two hours on an end-of-term Friday. I don't know how much has changed since I was at school but on that last day, no 'real' work was done after lunch.

Please. Not again.
School days are closely timetabled, and normal routines are not suspended just because it is half-term.

Thank you everyone for your advice and thoughts. I agree my daughter was at fault booking a flight that although in her time involved the children missing two hours on the last day thinking that would be ok as he hadn’t initially objected. They have been apart for three years and now divorced and prior to this he came on the annual May half term week holiday and was more than happy for the children to miss a few days school to accommodate a cheaper flight. However now he has become extremely bitter and marriage broke due to his narcissistic personality. It is a difficult situation and going fwd she must never do anything outside the Court Order which is very specific on lots of things due to his personality!! She constantly tries to work with him for the sake of the children but it is his way or no way. It will be costly to change the flight and he knows this hoping she won’t be able to go. The childrens feelings never matter to him which is so sad. It is only two hours…. CO specifies that either parent does not need permission to go on holiday abroad for less than four weeks. She always gives him a detailed itinerary before booking but he is very secretive about what he is doing with them. This is just him controlling his rights as a father being difficult as it is his right!!! I will update on the outcome

I'm with you on this MissAdventure
I think just "suck it up" this time... and give no opportunity in future.

I would rearrange if possible for the sake of the children, but he will have the satisfaction of knowing that he ‘won’ and caused the additional expense - assuming rebooking is possible. He won’t give a damn if the children lose their holiday. He only has the upper hand because the means to cause trouble was handed to him on a plate. This is exactly how my ex would have behaved in these circumstances.

It would remove his means of control about the holiday.
He has the upper hand, and it would take away his power over the situation.

The expense, well, an expensive lesson learned.

Surely it would be the cost of three flights, although I don't know what it would entail.

I'd take a loan of necessary, just to take away his means of causing trouble.

If it can be rearranged - and at what expense? That would give him just as much satisfaction.

Imagine the satisfaction, though, of being able to say "it's fine, we've rearranged", and not even bat an eyelid.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Good post Dickens. The ex sounds very much like mine (though I had sole custody and eventually the court denied him physical access). I know the type and you don’t give them the slightest opportunity to make trouble. You play everything by the book and abide absolutely with the terms of a court order. They will, as the saying goes, cut off their nose to spite their face and ignore sensible legal advice to let it go this time. They will insist on going to court regardless of expense.

Contact the solicitor and also the school, although if he has emailed the school refusing permission I doubt they will agree to release them.
Using his children as weapons will rebound on him ultimately but it is an increasingly common tactic from divorced parents, although it usually evaporates after a few years. Unfortunately it will cost your daughter extra money in expensive flights and solicitor's fees.

Your daughter was obviously aware of the terms of the court order as she sought his permission. Personally I wouldn't have given him the ammunition. He could create a nasty scene at the school and even cancellation of the holiday. Either way it will be upsetting for the children and potentially backfire on your daughter.

The SIL sounds unpleasant and controlling but if these terms are part of the agreement your daughter has to stick to them in future I'm afraid. She should however seek legal advice.

Iam64

GrannyIvy’s description of her son-in-law’s personality tends to be confirmed by his behaviour in relation to his attempt to disrupt the family holiday plans. I assume he’s given consent to the children being taken out of the country but didn’t realise the flight times meant leaving school two hours early. Objecting to this is indeed ‘toxic, cruel and self centred’. It’s about power over his ex, not about the best interests or welfare of the children.
School is in a very difficult position. The holiday may be a package so re-arranging flights not an option.
I understand the cost of legal involvement but this needs mum to have legal advice.
I can’t imagine any family court judge wanting this time wasting before them. Parents with or without lawyers would be sent off to reach a solution in the best interests of children,

Not all individuals are able to compromise in the best interests of their children sadly. This mum will need to avoid conflict which probably as the OP says involve conceding at times,

Although Glorianny is talking-sense in her post and giving advice that most impartial on-lookers would agree with in regard to maintaining 'good' relations with the father, it also has to be said that many of us recognise a man who is bitter and vindictive when divorced. In fact some have committed awful crimes in order to punish their ex-partners. And women are not immune to this type of behaviour either. I'm saying this in defence of the grandmother who, though not impartial, has probably witnessed first-hand the controlling behaviour of a man who is, clearly, not putting the best interests of his children first.

Notwithstanding the cost - I agree that Mum needs legal advice- and quick. He has notified the school that he is not in agreement with the plan, so he means business. They are now in an awkward position.

If the mother were taking the children out of school for two days during normal term-time, one could say he has a point - but this is two hours on an end-of-term Friday. I don't know how much has changed since I was at school but on that last day, no 'real' work was done after lunch.

The ex probably didn't realise that the flight times would involve removing the children from school early - we don't know if mum made that clear at the outset. But now he does know, and by Jove - he's going to capitalise on it.

This might cost the mother dearly both economically and emotionally, but I hope it's a lesson-learned for the future. Stick absolutely to the rules of the Court Order and don't give this man a bat's squeaks chance ever again to put a spoke in the wheels. He knows full well what his last-minute objections will incur, and he also knows he has right on his side because of that Court Order. I hope this is the last time this man is able to revel in his power and control because no-one is going to benefit from it, least of all the children.

Every sympathy, the children's father is being difficult and controlling, however ........... Sadly he is within his right to object! A court order is just that . If she takes her children out of school for two hours against his wishes then I sincerely hope that does not backfire on her . He is being unkind , controlling and not thinking about the happiness of his children.
Good luck 🍀

Your daughter knows what her ex is like. She also knows the terms of the court order. She shouldn’t have booked flights which meant them missing any school time without his agreement. She may find him waiting at the school when she goes to collect them, so I hope she doesn’t go alone.

Yes, Septimia - it's always a good idea to keep records in cases like.

That's what is advised in cases of abuse and bullying - and it can, and does, help outside parties understand what's going on.

Keeping fingers crossed for your grandchildren and the holiday.

One thing your daughter could do in future is to keep a record of all the times the agreement is varied in his favour (and hers, of course) so that she has some leverage, especially if he tries to take it to court.

GrannyIvy’s description of her son-in-law’s personality tends to be confirmed by his behaviour in relation to his attempt to disrupt the family holiday plans. I assume he’s given consent to the children being taken out of the country but didn’t realise the flight times meant leaving school two hours early. Objecting to this is indeed ‘toxic, cruel and self centred’. It’s about power over his ex, not about the best interests or welfare of the children.
School is in a very difficult position. The holiday may be a package so re-arranging flights not an option.
I understand the cost of legal involvement but this needs mum to have legal advice.
I can’t imagine any family court judge wanting this time wasting before them. Parents with or without lawyers would be sent off to reach a solution in the best interests of children,

Not all individuals are able to compromise in the best interests of their children sadly. This mum will need to avoid conflict which probably as the OP says involve conceding at times,