woops!!!! I have been told I have really upset a Grandchild

bellwetherblue

I’m called silly and I’m the one patronising people? Riiight

What I find silly is old ladies who use being old as an excuse for wilful ignorance and unkindness. You don’t have to understand people to be compassionate toward them.

Well, you’re destined never to change views or influence this ‘silly old lady’ or any of her friends. Patronising rude posts are best ignored. Sadly on this one I failed to follow my own advice

After all, 'Trans' goes in both directions, and many females make the long and difficult trans into men. They are now being told they MUST ONLY use womens toilets!!!!

No Franbern, they are told they must not use MEN'S toilets. They are free to use female or single toilets wherever available.

According to the trans barrister speaking on Woman's Hour last week, (copied down while he was speaking) to do so would force trans into additional privacy, which would reveal they are trans.
"There are private facilities so if you are affected by the knowledge there is a transgender person in your group, you, that is a normal person, can use additional facilities so that you are protected."

In other words, if biological women object to the presence of a man identifying as a trans woman , using their facilities, they must leave. This is the nub of the complaint brought against Sandie Peggie, made by a male junior doctor who identifies as a woman in an attempt to get her dismissed, plus mis-gendering him by using the 'wrong' pronouns, which is not compulsory. Also the Darlington Nurses, made to use makeshift accomodation to change.

Iam64

bellwetherblue

I’m called silly and I’m the one patronising people? Riiight

What I find silly is old ladies who use being old as an excuse for wilful ignorance and unkindness. You don’t have to understand people to be compassionate toward them.

Well, you’re destined never to change views or influence this ‘silly old lady’ or any of her friends. Patronising rude posts are best ignored. Sadly on this one I failed to follow my own advice

Yes, such ignorant posts are best ignored, Iam64.

Until she died, my mother never once called me by my married name, she always used my single name.

You’re correct Allira

I read in a newspaper that a trans man tried to join a women's gym, but was refused even though his biological origin is female.

It's a very confusing situation which must make trans people feel humiliated and very vulnerable.

There will be gyms for those of both sexes and genders.

This sounds like a try-on.

To add - A women-only gym would be quite unusual.

Oh I used to belong to one

There are lots of women only classes and activities eg swimming boxing weights yoga dance . . .
That's why it's such an issue

Saw this and thought of Grans

Why, if a person identifies as a trans man would s/he want to join a women- only gym?

One of my 14 -year old granddaughters was challenged when she went into a public loo. Like lots of youngsters, she wears loose fitting clothes and has her very curly hair cut short (so she can manage it more easily). She has always done loads of sport and is very slim. To me, she totally looks like a very attractive young teenage girl, but someone - in a loud voice - actually told her she was in the wrong loos.

Poor kid, she was very embarrassed and it has not done her very fragile confidence much good.

No apology was given when her Mother went back in with her to challenge this very stupid adult.

ALso, need to make a comment to whoever made the comment about my (very correct) use of the pronouns of They and Them when referring to people who are either bi-sexual, trans-sexual,, etc. Thank goodness our language adapts and changes - just that some people so dislike any change they refuse to keep up with it.

And here’s a new one: What if you substituted ‘black’ or ‘Asian’ for ‘trans’ and declared that black and Asian people are not welcome or legally not allowed in certain spaces? Is it still OK?

What a ridiculous analogy bellwether. I often share a changing area with black and Asian women. Women being the salient word. These are women, like me. I would hope that where you live this would be normal too.

ALso, need to make a comment to whoever made the comment about my (very correct) use of the pronouns of They and Them when referring to people who are either bi-sexual, trans-sexual,, etc. Thank goodness our language adapts and changes - just that some people so dislike any change they refuse to keep up with it.

Your use of pronouns is not correct; this a myth perpetuated since the 2010 Equality Act. You may choose to use them inaccurately; others do not have to comply. Snide remarks about disliking change will not improve your case.

Franbern

With the current change in law I am wondering how many people would react when joining them in their carefully defined Women's toilets, is someone with big biceps and an attractive beard?
After all, 'Trans' goes in both directions, and many females make the long and difficult trans into men. They are now being told they MUST ONLY use womens toilets!!!!

Exactly. Thank you Franbern.

Eloethan

I read in a newspaper that a trans man tried to join a women's gym, but was refused even though his biological origin is female.

It's a very confusing situation which must make trans people feel humiliated and very vulnerable.

Relieved to see there are some people on this board who show humanity.

Franbern

One of my 14 -year old granddaughters was challenged when she went into a public loo. Like lots of youngsters, she wears loose fitting clothes and has her very curly hair cut short (so she can manage it more easily). She has always done loads of sport and is very slim. To me, she totally looks like a very attractive young teenage girl, but someone - in a loud voice - actually told her she was in the wrong loos.

Poor kid, she was very embarrassed and it has not done her very fragile confidence much good.

No apology was given when her Mother went back in with her to challenge this very stupid adult.

ALso, need to make a comment to whoever made the comment about my (very correct) use of the pronouns of They and Them when referring to people who are either bi-sexual, trans-sexual,, etc. Thank goodness our language adapts and changes - just that some people so dislike any change they refuse to keep up with it.

So sorry that happened to your GD.

Unfortunately as this thread has shown, there are a lot of rude intolerant and narrow minded people out there.

At least a lot of them are old and will soon make way for the new generations and hopefully a kinder world.

eazybee

^ALso, need to make a comment to whoever made the comment about my (very correct) use of the pronouns of They and Them when referring to people who are either bi-sexual, trans-sexual,, etc. Thank goodness our language adapts and changes - just that some people so dislike any change they refuse to keep up with it.^

Your use of pronouns is not correct; this a myth perpetuated since the 2010 Equality Act. You may choose to use them inaccurately; others do not have to comply. Snide remarks about disliking change will not improve your case.

Wrong again, eazybee.

www.oed.com/discover/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/?tl=true#:~:text=The%20Oxford%20English%20Dictionary%20traces,'Hastely%20hi%C8%9Ded%20eche%20.%20.%20.

bellwetherblue. You just don't get it for you? Men are not and cannot be women no matter how much they want to be. Carrying on like Violet Elizabeth Bott won't change that.

Bellweather, all the bottom row I think, plus top right. But how can you tell with clever dressing and make up and does it matter. If you have male genitalia, use mens, if female use ladies. I thought that was the law, that could have chnged again.
The posters problem was addressing a granddaughter who had had two name changes and changed gender, how is anyone to keep up, she apologised but I think at 84 it was unkind to make a fuss about it, it shows the gc fragile mental health and obviously no one wants to fall out. Its biological what sex you are however much you try not to be. In future at gatherings say little.

Allsorts Interesting your comments that is what genetalia someone has that decides which public toilets they should be allowed to use. So, you agree that someone who has fully transitioned, with full surgery should, of course, be using the public toilets applying to their transitioned gender.

I would also say that you seem to make a lot of assumptions from my original post. At 84 years of age I do need any special treatment of myself. I am confident and assured in my life. My Grandchild, who has not changed gender as they now have none, does not have fragile mental health and, thankfully, is a happy confident person.

Yes, I upset them unintentionally, had not heard the term 'deadnaming' prior to that, but have learned a lot more about it since then. I sent an apology card, received an immediate Thank you for them on Whatsap, have seen them on several occasions since them and that particular incident is way in the past. No matter what age I reach I hope I will be able to continue to learn and adapt.

I think the current hoo-ha about the use of public toilets is totally absurd and very hurtful to some. If someone with a full beard, and obviously a male strolled into any loos I was using I would be a little surprised - but of course, under present legislation they would be in the right place as a transitioned man (ie born a female).

Having suffered greatly from Ulcerative Colitus for many years until I had the operation taking away my colon, etc. I would never deny in any way anyone who needs to use a loo. My Sainsbury delivery men all know that they can use the toilet in my flat if they need to.

There are, very sadly, a very tiny number of people who are sexually predative. Some of them have tried to use transitioning as a way to feed their sickness. Why on earth the very over-whelming number of other people should be made to suffer because of them is very weird.

Women living as Men and Men living their lives as women, is by no means a new phenomonia. It has always been there, but -as with gay people - for far too long in secret. We should be rejoining that this final area is no longer a stigma in our modern world.

Allsorts

Bellweather, all the bottom row I think, plus top right. But how can you tell with clever dressing and make up and does it matter. If you have male genitalia, use mens, if female use ladies. I thought that was the law, that could have chnged again.
The posters problem was addressing a granddaughter who had had two name changes and changed gender, how is anyone to keep up, she apologised but I think at 84 it was unkind to make a fuss about it, it shows the gc fragile mental health and obviously no one wants to fall out. Its biological what sex you are however much you try not to be. In future at gatherings say little.

Thank you for answering my question, Allsorts. I appreciate you taking the time. For all his bluster at me, eazybee obviously didn’t want to stand on that shaky ground. That’s his choice I suppose.

In fact every one of the women in that picture is trans. The point I was making is that it’s often impossible to tell.

Yes Aveline you’ve made your opinion very clear. That doesn’t mean you’re right.

It's legally absolutely correct. That's good enough for me. I don't need to collude with other people's fantasies.

Franbern, I still think you are biologically male or female despite surgery and chemicals.. However, all people should be treated with respect. You were the one who slipped up not me and I was just pointing out that allowances have to be made by everyone. You mentioned the name changes one being daft. If you have a granddaughter you think of her as a girl, it must take time to them identifying as male.
Just where they use the loo is up to them not me. If people look the sex they transitioned to you I can’t see anyone noticing. I personally wouldn't want any male in a female toilet, however on holiday men and women used the same loo, I avoided using it.
I would have written the card if I decided to send one and just sent it without the group knowing.