Debt

Fair or timing?
You were extremely fortunate.

Our mortgage may have seemed small by today's standards but it was a significant portion of DH's salary (mine was disregarded) and he had a good job.

Moving through necessity when interest rates were high meant even more of a struggle.

Yes, contraception means that it is possible to opt out of parenthood nowadays, so there is choice in that sense
It's not infallible!

Doodledog I’m not sure that most people’s circumstances are their ‘fault’, though, Cariad. I just don’t see it like that. I think it must be very difficult to go through life blaming others or feeling hard done by because of a sense that one is entitled to a certain lifestyle but unable to fund it.

That’s not how life works IMO. We all have things we would like to do or have, and some will get them and others won’t. It’s not always ‘fair’, but it’s not a question of some people inherently deserving a particular position in the world and others not.

I agree. People have free will, make choices. Also people have different health, relationships, and incomes. 'Fair' isn't a factor, imo.

We married when I was 16, husband was 18. No University or qualifications. He bought our home (my grandparents) when we married. Manasard addition, conservatory, renovations later. We've never moved. Choices.

Many people seem to have paid higher interest, we didn't, our small mortgage was paid well before that time. Fair or timing?

I’m not sure that most people’s circumstances are their ‘fault’, though, Cariad. I just don’t see it like that. I think it must be very difficult to go through life blaming others or feeling hard done by because of a sense that one is entitled to a certain lifestyle but unable to fund it.

That’s not how life works IMO. We all have things we would like to do or have, and some will get them and others won’t. It’s not always ‘fair’, but it’s not a question of some people inherently deserving a particular position in the world and others not.

I think that anyone who has a full-time job should be able to afford to live a decent life. Low wages are a scourge on our society, and high housing costs make that worse. I absolutely empathise with those (whether in couples, families or singles) who pay others’ mortgages or fund their lifestyles and have little left for themselves at the end of the month. But that empathy is across the board. I don’t feel more sympathy towards those with home-owning parents. Why would I? Those people are likely to inherit anyway, and are more likely to get help with deposits etc than those whose parents also rent ‘through no fault of their own’.

Why is blame attached at all? I think that’s the part of your argument I don’t understand. Should those from families who rented their homes have less of an entitlement to own them? It just doesn’t make sense to me. Where does the ‘fault’ come in?

The notion that children are a ‘choice’ doesn’t stand up either. Yes, contraception means that it is possible to opt out of parenthood nowadays, so there is choice in that sense, but for many people reproduction is an instinctive drive. In many ways It’s more than that - if people don’t have children the economy will collapse and culture will stagnate or become a gerontocracy. And children are expensive. That’s a fact - no empathy required. I think that from birth to 18 they cost upwards of £250,000 each on average, and then there is university, and any help with home-owning and/or childcare for the next generation if parents can or want to give it - it never stops. I’m not saying that people have families for those reasons on a conscious level, but their ‘choice’ to do so is not the same as choosing an expensive car or other lifestyle accessories.

If being in a couple is a choice, in what sense is being single ‘imposed’? Isn’t that a choice too? Or as much of one as pairing off, with all the compromises and responsibilities for others that involves?

Yes, home ownership is more expensive when there is nobody to share the costs. I don’t think it takes much empathy to see that. But it’s not about who deserves a house and who doesn’t, and I’m still failing to understand why blame is attached to couples and/or families.

Everyone has different circumstances and yes we sometimes live beyond our means. I used mine to buy my kids stuff and realised that it wasn’t the answer. But once given a credit card they can be dangerous.

It’s easier to get credit now that there are various buy now pay later schemes as well as credit cards. The cost of renting is so high for young people, especially families that many people rely on credit cards to get through. A long wait for benefits for anyone who loses their job, and when starting a new job, you might have to wait for your first salary if you work a month in hand as my grandson had to do.

I think basically it's a matter of empathising with people who've not got something that's a basic necessity and standard through no fault or choice of their own.

In a very different context, for instance, and though I'm not a carer and never have been I can empathise with those who are. I've been a "shoulder to cry on" noticeably often for those in that position. Right now - I've got a friend in his 50's who has landed up being a carer for both his parents (physical illness and dementia) and I'm used to the idea I'll see his car pull up at regular intervals when he's had enough and he's coming for "tea and sympathy" and I can sympathise and do wonder how Social Services think he's supposed to make an income for himself and do this - which has meant he's now on carers allowance instead of income and the last visit was a request as to how to deal with the fact he thought Social Services are pushing him even harder/to do even more instead of them doing it - yep duly confirmed they were deliberately placing pressure on him and it is something someone I knew that had worked for them told me all about years before when she warned me they might have a go at me in the future automatically because of me being female and my sibling being male and she'd told me how to deal with them if they did (which would start with - "Her son is the one she likes out of the two of us and he is 4 people including his family and I am 1 person). Yep....fast forward some years and they were indeed starting up pressure - but my reply was ready "Her son is 4 people, I am 1 person. Her son and his family live much nearer than I do and have cars - I'm in Wales and don't have a car". End of pressure and they had to pivot to her son and his family.

I had another friend moaning for some time about being a carer to her mother until she didnt so to say and she didnt even get on with her mother either. So I sympathise with anyone put in that position to a parent/s that doesnt even like them in the event.

I can sympathise/and have done with someone desperate to be a mother and it hadnt happened at the time I got told how many years they'd been trying - though my own first reaction to a (genuinely as it would have been) accidental pregnancy would have been to get on the phone instantly and arrange an abortion that week and complain if I had to wait until the following week. I celebrated with the desperate would-be mother when she was finally pregnant a couple of months later - as she'd noticed no mothers were celebrating with her and said I was the only one in the office rejoicing with her. I could see it was "killing her quietly with sadness" not having that child she was clearly desperate for. She was a new woman the second she knew and lit up like a little beacon with happiness.

In my last house - when a next door neighbour's wife died from a killer illness - he was straight round to my door and the brandy was brought straight out for him.

What I'm saying is one doesn't have to be in/have been in a bad position to sympathise and try to be helpful to someone who is in that position through no fault of their own (if ya don't meet Mr Right then you don't and there's nowt you can do about it other than have a "marriage of convenience" instead and wonder if you'll land up divorced later (I certainly would have).

But I'm racking my brains and can't think of anyone (other than other single people) that have ever understood or sympathised with all those extra financial costs and difficulties (none of which were our own choice). We just had a comment back of "We've got children and they cost money" - as I said "none of our circumstances were our choice" - so I never did get why they said about their (chosen) child expenses compared to our (non-chosen) extra expenses. I've probably often looked at them in disbelief that I was supposed to understand their chosen expenses - when they never understood our imposed expenses.

My parents and grandparents owned houses too, but I don't think it was something I knew how to do until I did it, just as my children had to find out for themselves in their turn. the system changes over the years anyway. I've never heard of someone being born a homeowner - people whose parents are home owners is a very different thing, surely? We made our own way in life - my parents and grandparents were living in their houses, so that had no impact on us.

As for couples driving homes from single people - that has to be the ultimate in passing the buck. It is always more expensive to live singly than as a couple, but couples often go on to become families, and at that point the costs of being single are nowhere near as much. Anyway, we all make choices based on what is right for us at the time - I can honestly say I didn't buy a house in order to be better off than single people. The idea that people would be angry at us for buying somewhere to live would not have crossed my mind - what were we supposed to do?

Norah

CariadAgain

Norah

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many. Almost wish I'd not read that bit - because I've remembered exactly how I felt whilst they were doing that and driving houses out of single peoples reach. Still cudgelling my brain to see if I remember any couple anywhere whatsoever (known to me or otherwise) sympathising with what had just happened to single peoples hopes/plans on buying - as I can't remember any of them anywhere even sympathising (not even a newspaper article saying "Well me and Him Indoors managed it - but I do feel sorry for single people for what we've done for ourselves knocking back on them and hurting them". Funnily enough - the 1970s was when I started turning cynical about the human race.....I do remember being angry they clearly didn't even care....

Better go and think about what's for belated lunch quick before steam starts coming out of my ears....

I believe inflation in early 1980s and early 1990s may have impacted prices? Good years to buy assets rather than hold cash. Home prices went up.

Warning - anecdote.

We had to move to a more expensive area in 1979.
Not only had house prices gone up by an average of 33% in a short time but the % increase meant, of course, that those in the more expensive area were even more expensive.

Then they slumped but thankfully recovered before we moved again.

CariadAgain

Norah

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many. Almost wish I'd not read that bit - because I've remembered exactly how I felt whilst they were doing that and driving houses out of single peoples reach. Still cudgelling my brain to see if I remember any couple anywhere whatsoever (known to me or otherwise) sympathising with what had just happened to single peoples hopes/plans on buying - as I can't remember any of them anywhere even sympathising (not even a newspaper article saying "Well me and Him Indoors managed it - but I do feel sorry for single people for what we've done for ourselves knocking back on them and hurting them". Funnily enough - the 1970s was when I started turning cynical about the human race.....I do remember being angry they clearly didn't even care....

Better go and think about what's for belated lunch quick before steam starts coming out of my ears....

I believe inflation in early 1980s and early 1990s may have impacted prices? Good years to buy assets rather than hold cash. Home prices went up.

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many

I typed a long post but have lost it.

Suffice it to say that there were many financial and economic factors in the 1970s and 80s which caused the increases in house prices but it was not young couples who caused this.

That is an erroneous statement.

Norah

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many. Almost wish I'd not read that bit - because I've remembered exactly how I felt whilst they were doing that and driving houses out of single peoples reach. Still cudgelling my brain to see if I remember any couple anywhere whatsoever (known to me or otherwise) sympathising with what had just happened to single peoples hopes/plans on buying - as I can't remember any of them anywhere even sympathising (not even a newspaper article saying "Well me and Him Indoors managed it - but I do feel sorry for single people for what we've done for ourselves knocking back on them and hurting them". Funnily enough - the 1970s was when I started turning cynical about the human race.....I do remember being angry they clearly didn't even care....

Better go and think about what's for belated lunch quick before steam starts coming out of my ears....

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

Doodledog - born into a home-owner family. My mothers side of the family had been home-owners for at least 3 generations to my knowledge (ie noticeably before most families were home-owners) - so it got to me thinking "We've owned for at least 4 generations now including me".

My fathers side of the family were in Council houses - but, as soon as my mother had her way they bought their own house (I would have been a toddler when they bought their first one).

So home ownership has always been - what I know and what I expect. Hence I knew exactly how to buy a house - and I hadn't got the foggiest idea how to get public sector housing (because no-one I knew had that). So - yep....I musta basically learnt how to buy/run a house of one's own at the same time as I learnt to read and the thought hadn't crossed my mind of doing any differently to that. I had to ask other people how to rent in Bedsitland when I first moved out and then had to ask other people how to move from that to public sector rented housing when my home still hadn't turned up and I was panicking and I most certainly didn't have the foggiest idea how to live somewhere long-term without a garden or how to manage in retirement if you didn't have your own home. To this day I don't know anyone in my agegroup or older who doesn't own their own home - though I've got friends down in their 50's who don't own and I see the problems that causes coming up at regular intervals.

I am only being reminded right at this moment re the problems one can have if you havent got a home of your own. There's one of my friends in his 50's that does own a home (which he had a struggle to get) and the only reason he's managing at all right now is because at least he's got that and so he's just about (on a temporary basis only) making ends meet on carers allowance and not spending a penny he can help. Reason being - his elderly parents are both still alive and ill (including dementia) and he's being driven scatty currently by the pressure Social Services are putting on him to turn into a carer and right now he is acting as a carer for them both and his only income is carers allowance (ie he's in his 50s - he still needs and intends to do a job!). Right now - I'm being sympathetic listening ear and reinforcer on standing up to that pressure from Social Services (as they want him to do their job for them). There is a LOT of "expectations" in Wales that family step in as carers (and he's Welsh) and they usually seem to - they are a lot more family-oriented than English people like me from what I can see.

I've got another local Welsh friend here in her 50's and she is still renting - and she's been pushed into being a carer too and is terrified her parents illnesses will land up in her maybe never inheriting what she needs to in order to buy a home for herself. I've already seen her panicking as she'd lost one rented house and had to find another one very quickly - which, thankfully, she did manage to do.

I watch a lot of panic going on in that 50 something age group here - and it basically boils down to being in the ones who don't own a house yet and are worried they may never do so. I see a lot of them being conscious of "Must have one before I reach retirement age - but HOW?"

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

How were you a homeowner from birth, CariadAgain? I'm sure you've said that before, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Re mortgages - my children both have them now, but they were ten years older when they got them than we were when we got our first one. This was partly because of house prices being so high now, and partly because they were paying huge amounts of rent as they both found work (and then partners) where they went to university, and we both lived with parents until we married. Rents back then were a fraction of the price they are now, too, even allowing for inflation.

I get your point M0nica re "based on one salary" - as that particular change was what caused single me to have such problems and my starter house was so delayed in turning up (10 years!!!!!!).

At 24 I distinctly thought "Well Mr Right hasnt turned up and maybe he never will then. So I have to buy a house on my own then". They'd just made women more equal and no-one could be awkward to me about giving me a mortgage just because of the sex of my body any longer. Trying to recall the figures - but the starter houses by me were around £8,500 each then (very much the standard price for them and there are plenty of starter houses there). My memory isn't so great re what salary I was being paid - but I know it was pathetic (think it was around £2,800 and I was having to climb a payscale to get the rest of it) and so I figured I should be able to manage just just just to get one.

Then they started taking account of wifes salaries too and that did it overnight - the couples knocked me straight out of any chance - as they shot up the price of those houses. To say I was upset would be putting it mildly - I was livid at being shoved back and off the "queue" because of being single. My comments about "smug marrieds" were pointed. My "fight to be properly housed" began at that point and took 10 years and that huge fluke of good luck before I managed to get mine thanks to them.

But - realistically - I am not at all convinced it would work. Our biggest problem is we are way way overpopulated. The second biggest problem is we don't even know what our population level is during the last few years. We know what it is officially (think that's around 68 million??) - but we certainly don't know what it is really - as we know. There is an MP right now trying to find out what our population level really is and I'm anticipating he'll have one heck of a job to do so - if he can manage it at all. He started by saying "How come there are way more smartphones owned than our official population level?" There will be people with more than one smartphone - but on the other hand babies don't own smartphones etc. We all know why and we've probably all got an idea just how many people are uncounted - certainly more than a million for sure and almost certainly we are talking a noticeable number of millions more than that.

So I would say the problem is the uncounted millions are also requiring houses on the one hand and then there's the second home factor on the other hand (ie quite a few people have second homes and one of the big drug company people - Pfizer? owns two second homes in a nearby town to me. That's just one household).

Then there's the minnow in the pool - I'm quite a fan of watching those urban exploring channels on YouTube and so I wonder just how many houses are sitting there in limbo (probably whilst relatives argue it out about inheritance). I know of one/probably two of those abandoned houses easy walking distance from my home and, as far as I can see, neighbours are jealously guarding them against anyone taking things any further re bringing those houses back into use (one of them told me direct that she didn't want "work" being done on the house next to hers). My own outlook is basically "Do do the work any house needs" - just as long as they don't increase the size of it (that's a problem of itself - and I've seen windows being put in roofs near me since I came here and am thanking heaven no-one has tried a house extension or garden-grabbing near me - if only so I don't have to spend time fighting it).

The way to make houses affordable is to limit mortgage loans to one salary per household. House prices will tumble and millions of other people, as the value of their house falls will find themselves in negative equity

And the consequence of that is that many people who are at present just about managing will find that they owe more than their house is worth, not a good situation for many.

When the olldest among us took out our first mortgage, lenders would only lend on one income. We bought our first house in 1968 and th lenders were begrudgingly prepared to take one salary and half a second salary into account, later on they did, as they do now and take 2 salaries into account.

The unintentioned consequence of this was it made houses more expensive because lending on two salaries means people can borrow more money and the more money lots of buyers have the mroe prices go up.

The way to make houses affordable is to limit mortgage loans to one salary per household. House prices will tumble and millions of other people, as the value of their house falls will find themselves in negative equity

Not forgetting that when I finally could get one it was on the basis that I was going to have to take in a lodger to cover the extra costs to start with. So I needed a very particular style of house - which I quickly found out was rare at starter house level and I was getting nowhere finding it.

So I went for a walk in a street I'd identified as just about affordable for me and was checking out the houses from outside and stopped dead outside one carefully assessing what I could see from the street and I was just waiting basically eyeing it up and down (roof - not replaced yet...but should last till I could move up the ladder/windows not doubleglazed yet..but should do etc).

. At which point I didn't know I knew its next door neighbour and I got spotted and invited in for a drink! It was going to go on the market within the week and I could see that a rather small cheap DIY job would change the layout sufficiently to what I needed re lodgers and it was something my father could do - so that was it = house chosen. I'd made sure that lodger wouldnt be having to walk through my sitting room to get to the kitchen. Job done before the academic year started.

Norah

Allira

Some people now cannot afford to take out a mortgage before 40.

As you say you married as teenagers and you have never worked, Norah, you are fortunate indeed.

My husband worked for 2 years, after quitting school, before we married. He's 2 years older. He's not one to spend, he saved.

I'm not sure how others save or are fortunate in waiting.

If I hadnt had a major stroke of financial luck - right place/right time/etc at 34 = I'd have been looking to see if I could start a mortgage in my 60s (late 60s at that)!!!!!! That thought makes me feel quite sick - that someone who was a homeowner from birth so to say (or anyone) could be made to wait that long before being able to buy a home. Not even sure if anyone would have given me a mortgage.

It was such an absolute fluke that I had the chance I had - even though I was there thinking "C'mon Universe - I'm trying to manifest a way....help me out here". I'd carefully put to one side two "redundancy" payouts (so-called) and thought "Right that's pretty much exactly what I need for removal expenses/solicitor. There's still no way to find a penny for a deposit - never mind the huge deposit I need on my salary". So yep.....I proved that - albeit only occasionally - manifesting does sometimes work....and I was visualising like no-ones business what I was going to do/how I was going to live in that house I was firmly set on getting it somehow or other. I'd have liked it to be the better house in better area that I was busy visualising - but it was pretty miraculous that I managed to get one at all in my circumstances. So I wasnt counting sheep to get to sleep at night - I was picturing myself walking up a path going through my front garden, cooking in my kitchen, going for walks nearby in that nice area I'd identified. What actually turned up was a house straight on the street with a back yard in a "middling" area - so far from what I'd been picturing....but at least I managed to get one.

You get to be pretty determined to find some way somehow when you've not forgotten that a work colleague from a previous employer shocked everyone by putting herself in a position to get shot (literally!) - as she'd been unable to afford a house too and so she'd married for one! When the husband found out he'd been married for the wrong reasons (ie to have a second income to put towards buying the house she needed) he shot her. I think she was injured - not killed - but I don't think anyone blamed him for doing that - as we know marriages are supposed to be "love matches" in our country and it hadn't been. So he was livid......understandably...

I worked for years after college but it took two of us working, after marrying in our twenties, to save for two years for a deposit for a semi-detached house.

Part of the problem is the credit limit on the credit card can be high. The credit limit on the credit card that I had for years is £12k.

I had quite a bit of debt of that credit card related to expenses for our previous 2nd home. Instead of using money in the savings account to clear it. I transferred the debt to a 0% credit card and pay it over a couple of years.

It was a bind but I was not ashamed of my debt or anything like that.

Allira

Some people now cannot afford to take out a mortgage before 40.

As you say you married as teenagers and you have never worked, Norah, you are fortunate indeed.

My husband worked for 2 years, after quitting school, before we married. He's 2 years older. He's not one to spend, he saved.

I'm not sure how others save or are fortunate in waiting.

petra

JennyCee
You claim that nobody NEEDS one.
What would you do if you got married, moved into a semi furnished flat and then were able to get a mortgage to buy your first house ( 1971)
Where would your furniture come from. Remember this is 1971, no wonderful second hand shops around to buy cheaper furniture.
We were fortunate that we both had secure trades ( printing).

1971. There were plenty of second hand shops around to buy secondhand furniture and far more auction houses than nowadays.

We married in 1968, rented an unfurnished flat. Bought a house in 1969. Both were furnished almost entirely with secondhand furniture. In fact one of our fist actions afetr we got engaged and found a flat to live in was go down to the local auction house.

A year or two before when my father retired from the army, my parents had furnished their home in a similar fashion. Furnishing with Victorian furniture, piante dor not was all the rage and some of it was relativley expensive for that reason.

Some people now cannot afford to take out a mortgage before 40.

As you say you married as teenagers and you have never worked, Norah, you are fortunate indeed.