Debt

How were you a homeowner from birth, CariadAgain? I'm sure you've said that before, but it doesn't make sense to me.

Re mortgages - my children both have them now, but they were ten years older when they got them than we were when we got our first one. This was partly because of house prices being so high now, and partly because they were paying huge amounts of rent as they both found work (and then partners) where they went to university, and we both lived with parents until we married. Rents back then were a fraction of the price they are now, too, even allowing for inflation.

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

Doodledog - born into a home-owner family. My mothers side of the family had been home-owners for at least 3 generations to my knowledge (ie noticeably before most families were home-owners) - so it got to me thinking "We've owned for at least 4 generations now including me".

My fathers side of the family were in Council houses - but, as soon as my mother had her way they bought their own house (I would have been a toddler when they bought their first one).

So home ownership has always been - what I know and what I expect. Hence I knew exactly how to buy a house - and I hadn't got the foggiest idea how to get public sector housing (because no-one I knew had that). So - yep....I musta basically learnt how to buy/run a house of one's own at the same time as I learnt to read and the thought hadn't crossed my mind of doing any differently to that. I had to ask other people how to rent in Bedsitland when I first moved out and then had to ask other people how to move from that to public sector rented housing when my home still hadn't turned up and I was panicking and I most certainly didn't have the foggiest idea how to live somewhere long-term without a garden or how to manage in retirement if you didn't have your own home. To this day I don't know anyone in my agegroup or older who doesn't own their own home - though I've got friends down in their 50's who don't own and I see the problems that causes coming up at regular intervals.

I am only being reminded right at this moment re the problems one can have if you havent got a home of your own. There's one of my friends in his 50's that does own a home (which he had a struggle to get) and the only reason he's managing at all right now is because at least he's got that and so he's just about (on a temporary basis only) making ends meet on carers allowance and not spending a penny he can help. Reason being - his elderly parents are both still alive and ill (including dementia) and he's being driven scatty currently by the pressure Social Services are putting on him to turn into a carer and right now he is acting as a carer for them both and his only income is carers allowance (ie he's in his 50s - he still needs and intends to do a job!). Right now - I'm being sympathetic listening ear and reinforcer on standing up to that pressure from Social Services (as they want him to do their job for them). There is a LOT of "expectations" in Wales that family step in as carers (and he's Welsh) and they usually seem to - they are a lot more family-oriented than English people like me from what I can see.

I've got another local Welsh friend here in her 50's and she is still renting - and she's been pushed into being a carer too and is terrified her parents illnesses will land up in her maybe never inheriting what she needs to in order to buy a home for herself. I've already seen her panicking as she'd lost one rented house and had to find another one very quickly - which, thankfully, she did manage to do.

I watch a lot of panic going on in that 50 something age group here - and it basically boils down to being in the ones who don't own a house yet and are worried they may never do so. I see a lot of them being conscious of "Must have one before I reach retirement age - but HOW?"

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

Norah

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many. Almost wish I'd not read that bit - because I've remembered exactly how I felt whilst they were doing that and driving houses out of single peoples reach. Still cudgelling my brain to see if I remember any couple anywhere whatsoever (known to me or otherwise) sympathising with what had just happened to single peoples hopes/plans on buying - as I can't remember any of them anywhere even sympathising (not even a newspaper article saying "Well me and Him Indoors managed it - but I do feel sorry for single people for what we've done for ourselves knocking back on them and hurting them". Funnily enough - the 1970s was when I started turning cynical about the human race.....I do remember being angry they clearly didn't even care....

Better go and think about what's for belated lunch quick before steam starts coming out of my ears....

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many

I typed a long post but have lost it.

Suffice it to say that there were many financial and economic factors in the 1970s and 80s which caused the increases in house prices but it was not young couples who caused this.

That is an erroneous statement.

CariadAgain

Norah

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many. Almost wish I'd not read that bit - because I've remembered exactly how I felt whilst they were doing that and driving houses out of single peoples reach. Still cudgelling my brain to see if I remember any couple anywhere whatsoever (known to me or otherwise) sympathising with what had just happened to single peoples hopes/plans on buying - as I can't remember any of them anywhere even sympathising (not even a newspaper article saying "Well me and Him Indoors managed it - but I do feel sorry for single people for what we've done for ourselves knocking back on them and hurting them". Funnily enough - the 1970s was when I started turning cynical about the human race.....I do remember being angry they clearly didn't even care....

Better go and think about what's for belated lunch quick before steam starts coming out of my ears....

I believe inflation in early 1980s and early 1990s may have impacted prices? Good years to buy assets rather than hold cash. Home prices went up.

Norah

CariadAgain

Norah

Doodledog

Also, we married young, which was more usual in those days than now, as it was far less acceptable to live together than it is today.

We lived at home until we married (mid 1960s). Have never rented.

Perhaps inflation in the 1990s has changed things slightly.

It was the 1970s and couples between them that shot houses out of the reach of many. Almost wish I'd not read that bit - because I've remembered exactly how I felt whilst they were doing that and driving houses out of single peoples reach. Still cudgelling my brain to see if I remember any couple anywhere whatsoever (known to me or otherwise) sympathising with what had just happened to single peoples hopes/plans on buying - as I can't remember any of them anywhere even sympathising (not even a newspaper article saying "Well me and Him Indoors managed it - but I do feel sorry for single people for what we've done for ourselves knocking back on them and hurting them". Funnily enough - the 1970s was when I started turning cynical about the human race.....I do remember being angry they clearly didn't even care....

Better go and think about what's for belated lunch quick before steam starts coming out of my ears....

I believe inflation in early 1980s and early 1990s may have impacted prices? Good years to buy assets rather than hold cash. Home prices went up.

Warning - anecdote.

We had to move to a more expensive area in 1979.
Not only had house prices gone up by an average of 33% in a short time but the % increase meant, of course, that those in the more expensive area were even more expensive.

Then they slumped but thankfully recovered before we moved again.

My parents and grandparents owned houses too, but I don't think it was something I knew how to do until I did it, just as my children had to find out for themselves in their turn. the system changes over the years anyway. I've never heard of someone being born a homeowner - people whose parents are home owners is a very different thing, surely? We made our own way in life - my parents and grandparents were living in their houses, so that had no impact on us.

As for couples driving homes from single people - that has to be the ultimate in passing the buck. It is always more expensive to live singly than as a couple, but couples often go on to become families, and at that point the costs of being single are nowhere near as much. Anyway, we all make choices based on what is right for us at the time - I can honestly say I didn't buy a house in order to be better off than single people. The idea that people would be angry at us for buying somewhere to live would not have crossed my mind - what were we supposed to do?

I think basically it's a matter of empathising with people who've not got something that's a basic necessity and standard through no fault or choice of their own.

In a very different context, for instance, and though I'm not a carer and never have been I can empathise with those who are. I've been a "shoulder to cry on" noticeably often for those in that position. Right now - I've got a friend in his 50's who has landed up being a carer for both his parents (physical illness and dementia) and I'm used to the idea I'll see his car pull up at regular intervals when he's had enough and he's coming for "tea and sympathy" and I can sympathise and do wonder how Social Services think he's supposed to make an income for himself and do this - which has meant he's now on carers allowance instead of income and the last visit was a request as to how to deal with the fact he thought Social Services are pushing him even harder/to do even more instead of them doing it - yep duly confirmed they were deliberately placing pressure on him and it is something someone I knew that had worked for them told me all about years before when she warned me they might have a go at me in the future automatically because of me being female and my sibling being male and she'd told me how to deal with them if they did (which would start with - "Her son is the one she likes out of the two of us and he is 4 people including his family and I am 1 person). Yep....fast forward some years and they were indeed starting up pressure - but my reply was ready "Her son is 4 people, I am 1 person. Her son and his family live much nearer than I do and have cars - I'm in Wales and don't have a car". End of pressure and they had to pivot to her son and his family.

I had another friend moaning for some time about being a carer to her mother until she didnt so to say and she didnt even get on with her mother either. So I sympathise with anyone put in that position to a parent/s that doesnt even like them in the event.

I can sympathise/and have done with someone desperate to be a mother and it hadnt happened at the time I got told how many years they'd been trying - though my own first reaction to a (genuinely as it would have been) accidental pregnancy would have been to get on the phone instantly and arrange an abortion that week and complain if I had to wait until the following week. I celebrated with the desperate would-be mother when she was finally pregnant a couple of months later - as she'd noticed no mothers were celebrating with her and said I was the only one in the office rejoicing with her. I could see it was "killing her quietly with sadness" not having that child she was clearly desperate for. She was a new woman the second she knew and lit up like a little beacon with happiness.

In my last house - when a next door neighbour's wife died from a killer illness - he was straight round to my door and the brandy was brought straight out for him.

What I'm saying is one doesn't have to be in/have been in a bad position to sympathise and try to be helpful to someone who is in that position through no fault of their own (if ya don't meet Mr Right then you don't and there's nowt you can do about it other than have a "marriage of convenience" instead and wonder if you'll land up divorced later (I certainly would have).

But I'm racking my brains and can't think of anyone (other than other single people) that have ever understood or sympathised with all those extra financial costs and difficulties (none of which were our own choice). We just had a comment back of "We've got children and they cost money" - as I said "none of our circumstances were our choice" - so I never did get why they said about their (chosen) child expenses compared to our (non-chosen) extra expenses. I've probably often looked at them in disbelief that I was supposed to understand their chosen expenses - when they never understood our imposed expenses.

It’s easier to get credit now that there are various buy now pay later schemes as well as credit cards. The cost of renting is so high for young people, especially families that many people rely on credit cards to get through. A long wait for benefits for anyone who loses their job, and when starting a new job, you might have to wait for your first salary if you work a month in hand as my grandson had to do.

Everyone has different circumstances and yes we sometimes live beyond our means. I used mine to buy my kids stuff and realised that it wasn’t the answer. But once given a credit card they can be dangerous.

I’m not sure that most people’s circumstances are their ‘fault’, though, Cariad. I just don’t see it like that. I think it must be very difficult to go through life blaming others or feeling hard done by because of a sense that one is entitled to a certain lifestyle but unable to fund it.

That’s not how life works IMO. We all have things we would like to do or have, and some will get them and others won’t. It’s not always ‘fair’, but it’s not a question of some people inherently deserving a particular position in the world and others not.

I think that anyone who has a full-time job should be able to afford to live a decent life. Low wages are a scourge on our society, and high housing costs make that worse. I absolutely empathise with those (whether in couples, families or singles) who pay others’ mortgages or fund their lifestyles and have little left for themselves at the end of the month. But that empathy is across the board. I don’t feel more sympathy towards those with home-owning parents. Why would I? Those people are likely to inherit anyway, and are more likely to get help with deposits etc than those whose parents also rent ‘through no fault of their own’.

Why is blame attached at all? I think that’s the part of your argument I don’t understand. Should those from families who rented their homes have less of an entitlement to own them? It just doesn’t make sense to me. Where does the ‘fault’ come in?

The notion that children are a ‘choice’ doesn’t stand up either. Yes, contraception means that it is possible to opt out of parenthood nowadays, so there is choice in that sense, but for many people reproduction is an instinctive drive. In many ways It’s more than that - if people don’t have children the economy will collapse and culture will stagnate or become a gerontocracy. And children are expensive. That’s a fact - no empathy required. I think that from birth to 18 they cost upwards of £250,000 each on average, and then there is university, and any help with home-owning and/or childcare for the next generation if parents can or want to give it - it never stops. I’m not saying that people have families for those reasons on a conscious level, but their ‘choice’ to do so is not the same as choosing an expensive car or other lifestyle accessories.

If being in a couple is a choice, in what sense is being single ‘imposed’? Isn’t that a choice too? Or as much of one as pairing off, with all the compromises and responsibilities for others that involves?

Yes, home ownership is more expensive when there is nobody to share the costs. I don’t think it takes much empathy to see that. But it’s not about who deserves a house and who doesn’t, and I’m still failing to understand why blame is attached to couples and/or families.

Doodledog I’m not sure that most people’s circumstances are their ‘fault’, though, Cariad. I just don’t see it like that. I think it must be very difficult to go through life blaming others or feeling hard done by because of a sense that one is entitled to a certain lifestyle but unable to fund it.

That’s not how life works IMO. We all have things we would like to do or have, and some will get them and others won’t. It’s not always ‘fair’, but it’s not a question of some people inherently deserving a particular position in the world and others not.

I agree. People have free will, make choices. Also people have different health, relationships, and incomes. 'Fair' isn't a factor, imo.

We married when I was 16, husband was 18. No University or qualifications. He bought our home (my grandparents) when we married. Manasard addition, conservatory, renovations later. We've never moved. Choices.

Many people seem to have paid higher interest, we didn't, our small mortgage was paid well before that time. Fair or timing?

Fair or timing?
You were extremely fortunate.

Our mortgage may have seemed small by today's standards but it was a significant portion of DH's salary (mine was disregarded) and he had a good job.

Moving through necessity when interest rates were high meant even more of a struggle.

Yes, contraception means that it is possible to opt out of parenthood nowadays, so there is choice in that sense
It's not infallible!

Last comment to Doodedog btw.

No, of course not. Although contraception is more reliable than it used to be, the idea that having children is a choice (with or without contraception) is problematic, IMO.

We had mortgages on houses bought in boom times when interest rates were very high, and were only able to save when they were very low. It may have been timing, but it was not of our 'choosing' - we bought the first one when we married, the second when we wanted to start a family, and the third when we needed more space (we are still there). Life might have been easier had we bought earlier or later, planned things differently, whatever, but we didn't 🤷. I don't feel angry at others about that. I don't feel aggrieved that none of it was our 'fault', or that we did nothing 'wrong'. Lots of things have gone right, and we were never entitled to anything in the first place. No point in getting annoyed about it, or blaming other people.

We weren't 'fortunate' though some are indeed fortunate. No legacy here.

Retrospectively, I believe we had timing on our side when purchasing our little home. We didn't have good timing when I lost 4 babies between the first two and the last two. God's plan, we have wonderful daughters.

Everybody has different circumstances and everybody makes their own choices.

I think part of the problem (at least around my area) is that builders would rather build a few large houses that they can make a lot of money from than a few more smaller houses. There is a building plot a mile or so from us that could have been used for six of seven smaller houses but instead they built three large ranch-style houses with large gardens and sod them for well over a million each.

Even when flats are renovated they are 'luxury, all-mod-cons' flats that cost the earth rather than nice, modern reasonably sized flats that ordinary people can afford.

When we bought our first flat in the 70s we had to use both our salaries to get the mortgage and I lived in fear for the first two years that one of us would lose our job and we would lose the flat (I worked on contract, so it was possible). The flat was the last one on a small site and had been reduced so we jumped at the chance as we had no other options. We lived without furniture until we could afford a bed but did have a built in kitchen.

No point in getting annoyed about it, or blaming other people.
Quite.

We had to move, I really did not want to but life doesn't always work out the way you want it to. It was just how it was.

I think part of the problem (at least around my area) is that builders would rather build a few large houses that they can make a lot of money from than a few more smaller houses

They've built lots of smaller houses on tiny plots here and they're not selling either.
Sales of larger houses on new estates are stagnating too.

There seems to be a slump in house sales which makes one wonder what will happen with the Government drive to build 1.5 million homes in the current Parliament if those already built are not selling.

Paperbackwriter

Why have a credit card if you pay it all off every month? Air miles!

Plus we use our to pay for our rail card and meals out with the points we build up.
We would never use it for things we can’t afford to pay off at the end of the month and it does come in so useful when traveling.
We got stuck in Perth when flights were cancelled because of Covid. We had to pay for more tickets to get us back via Doha, about the only airport that was allowing stopovers.
There would have been a way to get back I’m sure but a credit card made it easy.

I get points when I use my John Lewis credit card. I had vouchers to the value of £90 by Christmas. I always do part of each weeks shop in Waitrose and the vouchers more or less paid for the Christmas week shop in that shop.

Credit cards are also useful when you buy something expensive - a sofa or domestic appliance and you can spread the expenditure informaly over 2 or 3 months.

M0nica

I get points when I use my John Lewis credit card. I had vouchers to the value of £90 by Christmas. I always do part of each weeks shop in Waitrose and the vouchers more or less paid for the Christmas week shop in that shop.

Credit cards are also useful when you buy something expensive - a sofa or domestic appliance and you can spread the expenditure informaly over 2 or 3 months.

We accrue air miles using credit cards. Quite useful.

I don't currently have a credit card. As we are both retired, I can't see the point. We buy outright, and get financial protection from things such as PayPal and Apple Pay, which I use for online purchases (most of what I buy and book).

Maybe I should get one to boost my credit rating, but we don't use credit, so it feels a bit pointless.

I think what a lot of people forget about credit cards is that if you use them to make up a shortfall in your income, you are always playing catchup, as the following month you start with less than usual (as the payment has gone out). It can't be helped if the card has been used for essentials, but if money has been spent on luxury items one month, there is less in the next, and then there's the interest charges.

A friend's daughter has asked to move back home as she wants to clear her debts. She has run up about £30k on holidays, clothes and so on. At first my friend was ok about the idea as she wants to help, but her daughter's plan is to pay off the cards by having no housing costs or bills to pay, ie not contributing a penny to her mother's outgoings. I'm not sure what I would do in the circumstances - on one hand I'd want to help my daughter, but on the other I don't see that having free holidays and luxury items then living free to pay it off is a good lesson for life. The daughter is in her 30s and has a good job - it's not as though she's a struggling student.