4 yr olds unkind behaviour

merlotgran - you are my sort of woman, so is my daughter which is why she was so upset. The toy belonged to the host child who was totally innocent. (They were visiting friends) No-one had suggested he couldn't ride it - - Guilt is mixed in as DD knows they should have kept a closer eye on the little darlings. It is a relief to know that a child of just 4 understands rules but not necessarily yet the reasons for them. We have horses around all the time and from when my own children were growing up I had to explain to visiting children that they were NEVER to go near the livestock without me there, and if anything occurred and I gave them an order they had to respond immediately - explanations could wait. Apart from one family (who were not asked back) they all cooperated and enjoyed their days on the farm with us but without that discipline it could have been very different. Thank you again everyone for your responses. Very helpful and much appreciated.

I think that could indicate that either he was lost in his own little world and unaware, or a at least not acknowledging, what he had done, or, more likely, he knew full well what he had done and knew he was going to get into trouble for it!

Young children have a way of saying 'sorree!' breezily which is just paying lip service to it! It doesn't mean much said repeatedly like that, but if quietly made to look directly at the person they have hurt and say 'I'm sorry I hurt you' it does seem to get through to them and help them to realise that it was wrong.

I think you had it right - so intent on what he was doing - but at first he refused to get off the bike after the accident when told to which upset everyone too. I know his repeated 'sorry' was what he was expected to say - not that it meant it!!! Let's wait a while before we panic!!!

BTW, iam, since you are a doggy person, it occurred to me you'd enjoy Julie of the Wolves by Jean Craighead George. The wolf pack in question has a misfit member...

Good morning, iam . The headteacher of the primary school my kids went to would agree with you, that there are "bad uns" about whose bad behaviour good parents and good teachers can do very little. What I wonder is whether these people (some of them at any rate), as kids, do understand what is unacceptable behaviour but just continue with it anyway out of extreme stubbornness or because of some disability to 'fit in' with what is expected of them.

Good Morning thatbags - yes, you did say punish/discourage. I wasn't looking to get into a disagreement, more to make the point that positive parenting, like positive dog training is more effective than aversive/angry training or child care.
Incidentally, my experience of children (and dogs) is that their personalities are there to be seen from an early age. Life experiences and the way they're cared for during their developmental months (dogs) and years (children) will of course influence the way their personalities develop. One of the little girls we first met at age 3 was a nipper, pincher etc and throughout primary and high school continued to be someone who told tales, tried to get others into trouble and whenever she had the chance, bullied other girls. she's in her 30's now and honestly, she's never change. Her sisters are lovely, as are her parents.

Empathy is not irrelevant because the OP asked about it.

A child is never too young to learn about the consequences of its actions though and a simple way to reinforce that lesson in the circumstances is for the bike to be taken away for a while (as well as the telling off). When it's time to let him ride it again, it would be under the condition it will be taken away again if he uses it to misbehave. My parents were quite strict and I suspect my Dad would probably have told him the bike would be given away if it happened again.

I agreethatbags , and surely there are different markers for stages of empathy. One would not expect a young child to understand that blunt references to people's appearance can be hurtful e.g " Look at that mans big nose" , but I think they learn pretty quickly that certain actions cause physical pain , such as biting. I imagine that the child in question has exhibited similar behaviour before on more than one occasion , hence the concern.

When DD1 was only two she wanted to take her wee trike to the parent and toddler group we went to. I told her she could but that other children would want to ride it as well and she would have to let them.

She decided not to take the trike.

She was two but she understood. I simply don't believe that most four year olds can't understand that riding a bike into someone else is unacceptable behaviour. So I agree with the straightforward "no! don't do that".

Whether child had empathy is irrelevant. What the child has to learn is what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't, in other words: the rules of social behaviour. Parental authority is allowed and is necessary until the child is old enough to understand.

I still think a firm 'no, that is not what we do, that is very unkind', an apology by him to the hurt child and perhaps (depending on the attitude of the 'perpetrator') taking away the offending 'weapon' and saying that he can have the bicycle back when he realises it is for riding and enjoyment, not for hurting other children, is the way I would approach it.
He should be able to remember that next time he rides his bike and perhaps will develop empathy in years to come.

('other approaches are available and may give equal or better results')

Exactly, wilmak.

Re my use of the word punish about dogs, iam, did you notice that I put the word discourage in brackets after it in order to clarify what I meant? I did not specify what the punishment discouragement should be because that would depend on circumstances and the individual one's dealing with, but I still think the basic principle applies to children and dogs. Of course it won't always work. Nothing ever does.

I did mention further up thread that such discouragement does not need to be abusive, should not, in fact, be abusive.

Exactly Wilma

Aren't some posters confusing a child knowing the difference between acceptable and unacceptable behaviour with empathy? I think the point being made is a child might be able to learn the first from an early age, but the latter doesn't happen until a much older age (older than the OP's DGS) .

So many traits are mentioned here. Girls being more devious than boys of the same age. Girls learning to mimic behaviour to make friends. Young children with a simple sense of justice. Children constantly questioning us to understand things that confuse them because of how black and white everything is to them.

At four years old if a child does the 'right thing', it's because they have learned to do it that way. But it will be years before they fully understand why it should be done that way. Same with doing the 'wrong thing'.

I agree about the praise trisher it works well as I've found in my career with children. I think using 'condemnation' though is too emotive a term. I didn't 'condemn' my 4-year GS when I yelled at him. I was telling him that was enough no more kicking and punching.

As far as psychoanalysis goes I'm not a great fan of Freud. I find him extremely sexist in his views on women's behaviour and mental health issues.

Having worked with some badly damaged children over the years and seen some of their lives turned around by dedicated people who believed and used what you would probably term "psychobabble" I must disagree. There are strategies which can be used to help these children and behaviour can be changed. Recovery is fragile and there are always slip backs, but watching a child change, watching behaviour improve as self-respect and confidence build is wonderful. The best advice i can give to any one with a child whose behaviour seems really bad is look for something you can praise. Badly behaved children sometimes think they can't do anything right so they might as well be really naughty. Finding something good in them really pays dividends. One word of praise is worth ten of condemnation.

Anya -
"...current day attitudes which tend to dig deep for explanations of bad behaviour. Too much overthinking IMO."
I completely agree Anya. You usually can't undo what has happened in the past anyway, maybe with the exception of years of psychoanalysis.

Another thing that came out of those programmes was that, according to Robert Winston, children only start to develop empathy at around thirteen! I can see that in my elder GS. He has just become far more sympathetic, and nicer actually , in the last year or two.

But I don't think empathy as such would have been needed in this instance. I think it would have been obvious even to a four year old, that he had hurt the other child.

Actually Iam you can learn a lot about behaviour from dogs. My remark about psychobabble wasn't aimed at one person in particular but rather at current day attitudes which tend to dig deep for explanations of bad behaviour. Too much overthinking IMO.

Children can, and do, behave differently n different situations and with different people. Those of us who regularly mind our grandchildren know they can behave in one way for us and other for their parents and yet another way at school. They have much more understanding than we give them credit for.

Yes, they are all different too as Iam says. One of my GDs is so 'law abiding' she wanted to stop in the middle of the pedestrian crossing when the light changed to red! Her sister is much naughtier more of a free spirit. One GS is an extreme introvert while his younger brother is a 'I'm here lets get this party started type' (he's the one I yelled at!)

Badly behaved children are just as likely to come from an over-indulged background as from a poor one. But the all need to know what their limits are and what is unacceptable behaviour.

thatbags, are you a dog trainer? I'm not being sarcastic, it's a genuine question. I speak as someone with a dog who has been, according to 3 good dog trainers and my vet, given the best start in life, good socialisation, careful, consistent handling etc etc. The dog remains what they kindly call "a challenge". I used to work with children and my view is that if my dog was an 8 year old boy he'd be on a programme at school, rewards for good behaviour etc.
My point is that children, like dogs (and other animals) are all different. Some are easier to bring up/train than others. Also 'punishing' dogs is not encouraged. As with children, research shows differences in brain development in dogs who have been subjected to aversive or positive training. As with children, those brought up with positive, consistent treatment/training, do much better than those subjected to aversive training methods.
Interesting stuff isn't it

I just don't expect them to realise they are being horrid til they are older. Maybe 8 or 9?
I think DGD2 knew perfectly well that she was being difficult today when we tried to leave somewhere where she had been enjoying herself. The look on her face said 'I know I'm playing you up and I'm going to carry on playing you up because I'm enjoying it - so what are you going to do about it?'. She's 3.

Ah yes! Thank you, elrel, Robert Winston's the man.

Oh I loved 7 Up; a programme way ahead of it's time.

Thatbags - there's '7 Up' whichI think has got as far as '56 Up' and is most poignant, and surprising.
As I have 2 GC born just before and in 2000 I like to watch Robert Winston's 'Children of the Millennium' who are now of course teenagers. Again fascinating and sometimes surprisingly unpredictable.

You have to reward or punish a dog immediately after the behaviour that's being rewarded (encouraged) or punished (discouraged), so it's probably equally effective with children.