"I've always been a lifelong (insert part of choice) voter....."

Both the Tory and Labour parties have cynically clung to the undemocratic FPTP system so that their party could gain majority power on the basis of a minority of votes. Buggins turn has been so destructive for this countfy.

I would never support Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn as they both suppoft FPTP.

I never have stuck to a party phoenix but I have always been in favour of PR so I don't think this has gone so far off topic.

And it all started so well!

I was pleased that my post was taken as it was meant, i.e. questioning the fact that some people stick rigidly to voting for the same party, regardless of policies. (I did add a post about rigidly sticking to other long held habits, not just voting).

But of course, the political views have been posted too, no problem with that, t'was ever the way with threads

I think it is really one of our major democratic problems James and I think you can only work out things for the best at the moment. Democracy has developed over time. Only some male property owners voting then in 1918, the year my father was born, and his father got the vote when the Representation of the People Act gave the vote to all men over 21 and to all women over the age of 30 years. In 1928 women were finally given the vote on the same terms as men and then in 1969, both males and females who have reached the age of 18 years have the right to vote.

All this in the last 100 years but nothing to move to greater democracy since the 1970s. We have moved a long way in three generations but it is time, it is certainly time, when one persons vote should be the equal of any other persons vote, wherever they live.

No easy answers James! Just have to make your own decisions and act on them.

I am very new to theses columns, but I am sure you will have frequently discussed our rather out dated voting system.

This election is more difficult than ever for me because of where I reside, to be able to use my vote for the party whom I believe will put the country before party dogma.
My rather simple question is how am I in this sometime called a fair and equatiable society, able to make my vote really count for a party who's policies I really believe in?

I don't at present believe I can.

Good luck to anyone telling me to keep off Gransnet
It was a joke Jane10
(other threads)

I agree with you Jane and in fact think that anybody who needs A&E because of drunkeness should pay up.

Good luck to anyone telling me to keep off Gransnet. Surely my point is pertinent and worth raising? Poor old NHS needs supporting in ways other than purely financial. Can we not all do our best to keep ourselves as well as we can unless/until serious illness or accidents overcome us?
Just because we have an NHS free at the point of use does not give us a green light to drink and drug ourselves to insensibility or the OK to beat each other up leaving the overworked staff to pick up the pieces.
Sermon over!

So who has told you to keeop off Gransnet? Maybe someone has not agreed with you - so what?

[gasp]
Jane10 you will be told to keep off the threads

I await their manifestos

So what does any political party plan to do about tackling that particular hot potato? By which I mean misuse/abuse of NHS services.

And people still fighting as they waited in A&E which is what I have witnessed.

Hope you fair better mentioning that than I did once on gransnet.

Last time I was in A&E it wasn't the number of elderly people that struck me so much as the smell of alcohol that assailed me as I walked through the door. The place was full of drunk people. There were policemen on duty to protect the staff. This was during the evening but even so it was an eye opener. Stupid drunk men injured in fights or road accidents and girls who had passed out drunk and been picked up by the police. Where is personal responsibility for our own health? I don't mean regarding illness or injury that can happen to anyone at any time btw.

GGMK2 - I think that your post is a good example of the over reaction that greets anyone who tries to talk sense about the problems of the NHS and how we need to address those problems to ensure an NHS that can function in the long-term.
Day6 didn't say anything about "killing off the elderly" - how ridiculous of you to suggest she did.

I attend the hospital regularly, unfortunately and in the last few years I have noticed the strain it's under because of THE NUMBER OF USERS.

What are you suggesting Day6? That we kill off the elderly who are so ungracious that the bulge they were born into still exists? Whatever complaints you have this large number of old and elderly with complex difficulties will still be there and the attack on Care will not change under the Tories as it will mean all of us paying for some to benefit - and the Cons don't agree with that do they?

I've been avoiding these threads but I just had to come along and agree with the last 3 posters

Good posts day6 and db The NHS is going to have to change/ we must pay more tax/ or something! It cannot continue to stagger along when so many people are using it's services.Some things it offers now will maybe have to stop.Some use of private facilities may help.It has indeed been a problem for a long, long time.

Day6 - what a good post - the NHS has become a sacred cow - but it needs real reform - it has been in existence for over 60 years and so much has changed that is no longer fit for purpose - but politicians are scared of mentioning this - they think it's a vote loser and they're accused of trying to privatise the NHS whenever they suggest anything. But for how long can it continue in its present form? It's like a money-eating black hole - £120 billion and they want another £20 billion - then how much more? And I shall be really bold now and say "not all doctors are saints and not all nurses are angels" I await retribution.

GracesGranMk11 - "After the Osborne madness we have a collapsing NHS so the choice is; allow it to collapse or spend costed amounts to put it back on track. We have collapsing national education which will have to be put back on track with costed programmes."

Hang about. This isn't new. The NHS has been under a strain for a while - in fact, the state of the NHS has ALWAYS been a topic in every single general election I can remember, and I'm in my '60s.

However, if anyone has visited their hospital's outpatient's department in recent years have you experienced, as I did a month or so ago, standing room only????

I attend the hospital regularly, unfortunately and in the last few years I have noticed the strain it's under because of THE NUMBER OF USERS.

More people are using the NHS. Are more hospitals being built to accommodate population growth? NO.

My last visit to the outpatients' department was an eye-opener. So many families who couldn't speak English were being helped by translators. Old people were standing, and everyone had a long wait to see a doctor. The large, open hall was absolutely rammed and there was a 120 minute wait for a blood test.

Standing room only is a recent event. If immigration/population increase IS the cause of waiting times along with an ageing population and an increased birth-rate, I don't really care. Sick people are sick people. However, there are queues and the NHS is feeling the strain, so why is no one saying so? Labour is promising to build new hospitals and surgeries are they? They will solve the problem of population growth will they? I don't think so.

The same applies at my GP's surgery. It's hard to get an appointment and sometimes there is a two week wait to see a doctor. The surgery now has 8 GPs on a rota, (there used to be 4) so there isn't a doctor shortage.

Whichever party wins the GE a HUGE investment in the NHS will have to be made.

Labour always use the NHS as a political football, but too many people using a service which cannot cope is at the root of many of its present problems, and that evidence isn't exactly hard to find. No one will say this though.

Some privatisation of services actually alleviates the strain on the NHS and means patients get better care. It's not a completely bad thing. Most eye surgery locally is farmed out and getting an appointment is easy and there aren't long waiting lists for surgery. My OH has sung the praises of the team attached to our local hospital. His sight has improved because of quick, efficient treatment.

Whoever wins will not allow the NHS to die. That is political suicide and no party would stand by and see it vanish.

The left assume they are guardians of the NHS but under Blair and Brown's watch not so long ago, things were dire. Let's not pretend the NHS used to, in recent times, work efficiently. It didn't.

The present problems have built up over a LONG time but have been exacerbated by population growth in the last decade and a system which cannot cope with numbers.

Every party promises to invest in the NHS...not just Labour. The administration of the inefficient NHS is long due an overhaul.

the Conservatives always inherit the mess that Labour left behind

This just feels like chiming out the party line and very, very blinkered. Many feel (probably an equal number) that the LP have to spend to get themselves out of the mess the Conservatives leave behind.

After the Osborne madness we have a collapsing NHS so the choice is; allow it to collapse or spend costed amounts to put it back on track. We have collapsing national education which will have to be put back on track with costed programmes. We have strained police, fire, ambulance and the defence of our country - like all these other services - is relying on the goodwill of the forces. And I haven't mentioned Care.

All this while cutting taxes on capital.

Many have been brainwashed to say we can't afford these things - but it is a choice. The capitalist choice is to leave all the capital with those who have accumulated it. The communist choice would be for the state to control all the spending. Somewhere in the middle is the balance. However, the recent Conservative government has moved closer and closer to the Capitalist model.

And what have they achieved - increasing debt. Knowing how to get debt down isn't difficult. You decrease spending where you can and increase income. Increasing income may require some initial investment which feels counter-intuitive but isn't.

So while the Conservatives have decreased the deficit (the difference between income in and income out) they have increased the debt HUGELY. Why is this? Because they are capitalists and have not only cut spending but cut income too by lowering taxes to the capital rich.

We need the balance. More income - from those who can afford it rather than giving them more. Investment on revenue producing projects such as infrastructure, improvement and training (producing more income over time) and a careful spending programme which does not set up a mess of disinvestment that has to be cleared up later.

I am not sure who can do this but I am very sure the Cons can't.

I understand your point of view MOnica but my life experience has been the conservatives don't invest in public services, that in recent years they've slashed and burned our public services. Labour come in and have to pick up the pieces. The Blair government made such improvements to schools and family centres (as one example) in all the areas I worked in the north west. Parents in deprived areas talked with real pride and enthusiasm about the new community schools in their areas, which included the library, the family centre, the presence of health visitors and midwives - breakfast and after school clubs.
This government has closed over 1000 family centres this year yet claim to be improving things.

I did that on my ballot paper for the Police Commissioner.

NONE OF THE ABOVE

Well, since the Conservatives always inherit the mess that Labour left behind and have to sort it out, the Conservatives inevitably end up having to play Scrooge. Considering the Conservatives more reliable economically does not mean that there economic policy is good, just better than the alternative and I am fed up of seeing the country go through economic hardship and just as it looks as if things might improve Labour coming in and messing it up again. I want labour policies in a well managed economy. At the end of the day social justice is dependent on that