Gig Economy

Cagsy Wed 03-May-17 13:16:27 Thanks for your reply.

How odd, on the occasion of our first delivery the Ocado driver said that the drivers are not allowed to accept tips and it was quite a large delivery (12 bags) and I had a fiver in my hand. He was middle-aged as most of them are in our area.

And since I have never been looked at in expectation of one. We meet ours at the front door, so there's no coming in or going upstairs, downstairs, etc.

The links were interesting and informative. DH was (is) self employed, but it was much like zero hour or gig in many ways. He loves it, poured himself into his idea and made a good wage. We pay taxes, the contributions, took holidays when we were inclined, his hours flex as needed.

As long as someone pays the contributions, I think gig, self, and zero-contract all have merit for people who don't want to be on the "regular empolyer employee path".

Not all zero hours contracts are bad. There is a (probably small) percentage that are mutually beneficial to the employee and employer, because of the flexibility they offer. It becomes a problem when the flexibility is all on the employers side and none on the employee side, e.g. When people can't choose whether or not they want to work particular hours in any given week, or when they are not allowed to accept work from a different employer.

They aren't all minimum wage jobs either - I have a zero hours contract which suits me very well and the pay is good. The big difference is that for me, it's extra income on top of my pension, and buys the extras like holidays and treats. That's very different from the position if someone is dependent on a zero hours contract as their main or only income.

However, all these different situations get lumped together as 'a bad thing'

And then these workers are criticised for being benefit dependent

hear Hear Lyndie

Another point to consider. The large global companies who pay their staff low wages . The staff need topping up by housing benefit, tax credits. So we are paying for companies to make more profits for their shareholders and executives. It's so unfair on everyone.

Sorry Heckter. meant to make your name bold, but failed to proof-read!

Food (or textiles or anything else) which has the official Fair Trade mark - the blue and green one - is not monitored by the supermarkets, * Heckter* but by the Fair Trade organisation whose proper name escapes me for the moment. I buy Fair Trade when I can too, and particularly bananas and cashew nuts, which both have poor records for the exposure of workers to horrible chemicals. These days there seem to be more instances of Fair Trade and organic certifications going together, and this does apply to both bananas and cashew nuts. Traidcraft and Natural Collection both have good ranges of Fair Trade foods and other things.. I have to confess to using Amazon but never buy Nestle products.

It is a minefield to be sure, I won't shop with Amazon or buy Nestle products and try to but Fair Trade when possible. I also mainly buy organic (for the environment not because it's better for you) and try to buy free range/outdoor bred meat on animal welfare basis. I think you might be right on this Jaycee5. I'm told many of the fabrics Primark use are not recyclable so contribute to landfill.
Like many of you I feel sad, if not angry, that we seem to be going backwards in terms of workers rights - lack of paid holidays, sick pay etc never mind the evil of zero hours.
Oh and Ocado drivers definitely do accept tips Lewlew, I tend to only give them now when I have a particularly large order, Christmas etc.

Heckter Wed 03-May-17 12:07:08 I hope they don't drag a paying passenger off the plane for the staffers, though!

Thank you Lilyflower for putting the other positive aspect of not always buying local. In the major supermarkets, any food that is Fair Trade, means that the local workers are paid a minimum wage for that part of the world, with add-ons such as free schooling and free medical. Of course, it is entirely up to the supermarkets to police the system......

Furthermore, my brother-in-law flies for one of the world's largest airlines, and if my sister wishes to travel "staff" which means paying only the admin costs, the captain of the airplane decides how many "staff" travellers may be included on the flight, dependent on weight, as all flights take fresh cargo, including Kenya beans.

Regarding companies like Deliveroo:

There are many restaurants that wouldn't normally have a delivery or takeaway service so you can see the attraction of being able to have additional customers without having to physically accommodate them, or have in-house delivery staff.

I love to eat out but sometimes it's not possible to actually go to a favourite local restaurant but I would like to eat their food, so by using such a service I'm providing a rider a 'gig' and supporting local businesses. Recently DGD & DIL turned up a day early (with only a couple of hours notice!) so when they arrived I got on to Deliveroo and ordered from a quite smart Thai restaurant, so they had very good food and I didn't have to cook in a hurry.

These new services are out there, they're not going to go away as they provide what people want, but it's all a bit of a moral maze.

One must remember that what is at the bottom of driving prices down is the globalisation effect of other countries paying very low wages. Chinese workers are paid at a much lower rate than home workers which is why their products are commensurately cheaper. They have few rights as we know them and no health or welfare provison. China has kept its products cheap by artificially keeping its currency low for decades.

You might want to factor in the huge benefits to even the poorest worker in this country of free health, school, legal, pension and welfare benefits. I costed what my aged mother was receiving in health benefits alone as a poorer pensioner and it came to £10,000 for the year when she had her cataracts operated on. She has dementia tablets which cost over £60 a sheet.

Cheap green beans stimulate foreign economies far more effectively than charity ever can.

Sadly for the nay-sayers it is still true that the market is the greatest stimulator of prosperity and that the rising tide actually does float all boats. It might be that there are some eye catching inequalities between the richest and poorest in various societies but all the actual statistical and factual indicators point to everyone growing better off and health improving everywhere except failed states.

Trade, commerce and financial interactions all create wealth so there is no need to feel guilty about living.

You cannot tip Ocado drivers, they will flat out refuse as it's against company policy. Found that out the first time I used home delivery when I was laid up.

I think that it is good that people are thinking about it. I boycott a lot of shops and companies but it is impossible not to slip sometimes. The list of workfare users and that of tax dodgers are both very long, then with child labour (which it is often difficult to find out about) and the way that minerals used in phones are mined in the Congo etc. it is a big subject.
People should do the best they can and try to shop ethically but not get so worried that they give up. Personally I think that shopping ethically could achieve more than voting (although I believe that everyone should vote).

Do you pay tradesman in cash and not get a proper invoice? That is a difficult one - they may or may not declare the earnings for tax. Chances are if they say no to cheques they are not declaring it.

I will be devil's advocate here.

I am concerned that the gig economy is a good way for companies (however small or large) to avoid paying the employer's National Insurance contribution, deprive workers of certain rights and increase their profits. I also suspect that their "contractors" (can't call them "employees")like it as they can avoid the same deductions from their pay.

We all know that the NHS needs more cash and that public services have been cut to the bone, and it is not helpful when the Exchequer is being deprived of money that it should receive.

A balance needs to be struck to allow flexible working practices whilst ensuring that proper NI and taxes are paid. One way might be for the Government to give self employed contractors the same rights as employees to sick pay, holiday pay, mat/paternity leave, etc.

As for the minimum wage requirement, it's all very noble but there aren't enough people around to enforce it and the employees won't complain because they don't want to lose their jobs.

Have you researched their ethics policy.

Yes, I heard it daphne, that is where I learnt what the 'gig economy' meant.

I love Uber btw, brilliant, but I know there has been a recent case about the drivers being treated as self employed.

Didn't Uber drivers win a recent case on this?

There was a Radio 4 programme last week about the differences and the challenges called the "Self-Employment Paradox:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08n2wcx

I didn't know that about car building being seasonal. Yes it is worrying and sad that the same issues are so widespread now but those that benefit from this brave new world have nothing to fear at all from the next government have they? Why on earth would any Conservative government want to have better paid working people with proper working conditions when they can have what they've got - higher profits? And the average consumer is perfectly happy with the associated lower prices. No brainier really, is it?

The sad thing is that zero hours working is a retrograde step. After WW2 until the mid 1960s my FiL worked on the assembly line at Vauxhall in Luton. At that time car building was a seasonal job and workers were laid off in the summer months and not paid, even though, they were employees.

There was a lot of labour unrest and strikes with one of the key demands being year long employment and a guaranteed week, ie an agreed minimum hours pay every week. A battle the workers won.

It is worrying to see the working practices we thought we saw the last of in the 1950s coming back in the 21st century, albeit in a different industry.

Norah, I am pretty sure you are right, gardeners and cleaners usually work for more than one person and generally can chose who they work for and for how many hours. The same applies to the hairdresser.