STOP CLAPPING!

Oh another good entry for the Poetry Prize.. well done Trisher and MAW!

As only around 6 people have been involved in the discussion since "If" was mentioned Maw that's over 75%.
As for poetry like IF
It's not bloody difficult
Done in 15 mins

If you can read a thread on grans net
And not believe the world is going to pot
If you are can hear some real rubbish, yet
Not believe a load of absolute rot

If you can face the right wing views
Of people who say they really care
But constantly dispute the news
And don’t believe what’s really there

If you can stick to to the real left
And take the cries of communist
And not lose faith or even feel bereft
By accusations you’re a Corbynist

Then you can hold you head up high
And know that your beliefs stand strong
That those who wring their hands and sigh
Will at the next election be proved wrong

if you bother to read the thread you will find many posts from people who think the poem needs proper discussion.

Many posts, yes. But only three or four people at a push.

Maw ???????

Maw you missed your way! You're a poet and didn't know it!

MawBroon - Nice one!

"I eat" isn't Milligan lemon it's anonymous.
I always prefer Milligan's "On the Ning,Nang Nong" Now that SHOULD be on a wall. Brighten everyone's day.

If you can read a thread about Kipling
Even if you’ve never kippled
If you’ve any understanding
Of human perception uncrippled
If you can bear without patronising
The opinions writ of others (sorry! Poetic licence)
If you can bear to pass on PC memes
And use some common sense
And keep a sense of humour
At opinions weird or dense
If you can show some toleration
Without rushing to a ban
Or running home to GNHQ
Then you’re a Gransnet Gran.

The students may prefer a short piece by Spike Milligan in that case ( fits in with their fast paced lives)

‘A thousand hairy savages sitting down to lunch,
Gobble gobble gobble, munch munch munch?’

Wait! Can’t write about savages, so maybe this ( also by Spike)
‘I eat my peas with honey, I’ve done it all my life,
It makes the peas taste funny but it keeps them on the knife’

Perhaps in your opinion trisher it was, others on here would disagree, as their posts tell you.I have read the thread in it’s entirety.

lemon if you bother to read the thread you will find many posts from people who think the poem needs proper discussion. If you know anything about human perception and the way we process information displayed in the street you will know that basically our brain assimilates and retains things that are of interest and information which fits our lives. So it isn't anything to do with "thick" students, just the way our brains work. It may have been political correctness which initiated the removal of the poem but whatever perspective you look at this from, aesthetic, critical or political it was the right decision.

Are students so thick today that they need ‘IF’ to be explained to them?!
The answer of course is no ( for the most part anyway) it was simply political correctness about Kipling himself, that his poem was taken off the wall.
It’s a superb poem for anyone to try and aspire to, especially when younger.
The wrapping up in cotton wool, making children of grown young men and women, ‘safe spaces’ and general victimhood is disturbing.The students are old enough to drink themselves stupid, sit around taking drugs and tumble in and out of bed together, but may become offended or tearful at the least thing outside of that it seems.

I don't think pulling down the statue was necessarily a good thing PECS anymore than I think ISIS destroying historical sites was a good thing. Unfortunately war enables and promotes destruction on all sides. But I can see that some would object to the prominent display of a statue that commemmorated a slaver. I think that adding a plaque giving accurate information is probably the best solution. I think I have already said that wider analysis and discussion about Kipling is more appropriate than a wall poem.

Irradicate history?

trisher I actually think it is part of the same thing. If we do not like a statue of Colston in Bristol because of his trade and we think Kipling was a racist does it stop us appreciating the positives of their lives? Prosperity for a town, language and stories etc. If we , as a nation agree it is 'a good thing' to pull down statues of dictators in Iraq surely we should apply similar standards at home?

The ability of people to misunderstand or to extrapolate from posts something that has never been said is amazing (could it be deliberate?) . Believing a poem shouldn't be posted on a wall is about as far away from destroying statues as you can get. It has already been proved that a poem can be misunderstood without proper analysis, particularly a long complicated one such as "If". To imagine from this that any writer or any other artist should be censored is just imagination. All writing and all art has its place and should be available somewhere. No one has actually said they shouldn't.

I think there’s a case of “watch this space” there, chewie.

Dickens could, and has, been accused of both racism and anti semitism; in particular regarding his caricature of Fagin in Oliver Twist. Should his work be condemned? Should his books be removed from libraries so that they no longer offend the yoof of today's sensibilities?

As I said earlier I am not sure what I feel about excluding historical artists/musicians/writers works from our culture. I think they need to be understood within their context...some works will still have relevance to contemporary life and others may not but are important in understanding the era they were from. I am not sure brushing out uncomfortable truth is a good way to go..but in the case of companies/ aristocrats/business men, that made money from slavery for example, who were honoured with buildings and statues. Do we wipe them out or just make sure we do not make wealth on dirty practice now? Think we are already failing there! Were we happy to see statues fall in Bagdhad , is there one rule for foreigners and one for us … ? So many questions and I am not sure what I feel!

Of course. There is so much difference between the production of a play and sticking a poem on a wall even comparing the two is difficult. But for example the play is translated through the director and the actors, sometimes the script is adapted, sometimes the costumes and sets move the time of the play. There are too many variables to list. But basically the play carries with it some elements of analysis and explanation, a poem on a wall doesn't.

Should we still be having productions of Shakespeare's plays then.?

Of course Kipling was "of his time" which is why his poem doesn't belong on a wall in a university today.

PECS - thanks so much for your comment about Kipling being 'of his time. It isn't about reference for the past in my case, it's about the way the past informs our present and future. All these heroes of our imperial past are exactly that, part of our history. We can't wipe them out but we can accept their influence at the time. That means we should be able to reflect on how different they would be if living now (we hope, not in the case of BoJo of course.....)

For God's sake! 'If' condones gambling ...? What nit-picking, miserable, critics some posters are!

The world is going to hell in a handcart and we are arguing about a dead man's writing from some years ago! Kipling was of his time..not sure he resonates with many younger folk ..might do if enthusiatically taught but there are probably equal poets / writers that are more relevant to the current day. I think reverence for the past is overrated.