Veganism, genuine questions.

Cheap food is NOT good David.

It is good if you haven't much money.

No, it is better than nothing if you haven't much money.

Healthy fresh food can be cheaper than processed foods.

Sorry, I was not clear, I was not literally comparing birds eating slugs with Christians being eaten by lions, it was an analogy.

What I was saying that is putting snails and slugs on a large flat area of greensward with no where to hide(in the same way the Colosseum is a large flat area with nowhere to hide) a habitat they do not normally occupy, in order that they may be visible to predators and have no means of protecting themselves from them, seems to me to go completely against the philosophy behind veganism.

Snails and slugs in their natural habitat, do get eaten, but also avoid it by staying under cover, among leaves etc. A slug or snail taken out of its habitat and put somewhere where it can be seen and has no protection, is something else entirely - and a recommendation to do this from a vegan[shocked]

Everything goes back to a lack of basic cooking skills.

Cooking from scratch using fresh ingredients is far cheaper than buying processed foods but unless people either know how or have the desire to cook they're going to seek out cheap, processed ready meals.

Veggie or meat - it doesn't make any difference.

They also need to have the facilities; the gas, the electric and access to a cooker.
Lots of people haven't those things.

What I do not quite understand about Vegans is why their reaction to something being done badly and cruelly, in some cases is to instantly demand that is banned, not that we should have higher standards and they should be implemented. Nothing in life is ever done perfectly all the time.

Further up the thread I pointed out that many people have suffered botched operations. There are bad and obsessive surgeons, or a flawed procedure was being used or the inevitable mistake that the best surgeon can make has happened. Some times a poor surgeon has stayed in post even though other staff members know people are suffering as a result.

But no-one has ever suggest we ban all surgery as a result. The call is for improved standards and improved monitoring. Why not campaign to do that with shearing and meat production rather than wanting them banned.

Many decades ago I moved to buying only organic or virtually organic meat because of I wanted to be sure the animals I ate had the best possible lives when living and good conditions at slaughter. Yes, organic meat is expensive but there is an easy solution, which is to eat smaller portions of meat and explore the wide range of foods and recipes available these days.

I now make a casserole or stew with 1lb of meat and lots of veg. Where as in the past a lb of meat fed four, I will now get eight portions from the casserole because of the extra veg. There are such a wide variety of foods and cuisines available these days, buying better meat, but less is entirely possible.

I would like to think the supermarkets were monitoring as closely as David suggest but the buying driver behind all supermarkets is low cost, low price, and if high UK standards means the meat is not price competitive with imported meat, the supermarkets will buy abroad and that inevitably means lower welfare and slaughter house practices and since not every abattoir in the UK will be monitored 24/7 there standards will drop as well.

They also need to have the facilities; the gas, the electric and access to a cooker.
Lots of people haven't those things.

and what they do have is food from the Food Bank which may be 'nutritionally balanced' - as far as possible - but will not be fresh and may consist of tinned meat of some kind, tinned vegetables, tinned fruit, custard, packeted food etc

I doubt if lots of people do not have gas, electricity or access to a cooker, even among those using Food Banks.

I am not downplaying the real problems of people who are in that position, I just do not think there are lots of them.

What would all the knitters of this world do?! It's a wonderful, rewarding, relaxing hobby.

I suppose it depends on your definition of lots.
I can name three straight away, and they are offshoots of my huge circle of 2 friends.
Still, all of that is by the by, really.

Most sheep are sheared by workers on piece work who do in fact cut the sheep who is being sheared.

The practice of cutting living flesh from the backsides of sheep to stop insect infestations is abominably cruel.

I really would like to see a guaranteed explanation of that. because as far as I can see it is contradictory. Trimming the wool on their backsides, yes, that stops it getting claggy with faeces (sheep are not great buyers of toilet paper, not even the soothing moist variety) but cutting off flesh leaving an open wound will attract the very bluebottles that it is said to prevent. Is this really a deliberate policy, or is it an accident that sometimes happens when the stockmen are clumsy and careless while doing piecework and trimming large numbers of mucky bums with one eye on their total numbers?

But not right now, please., I'd like to sleep well tonight.

The practice of cutting living flesh from the backsides of sheep to stop insect infestations is abominably cruel.
Do you have any proof at all that this happens?

Cutting flesh would result in a worse infestation.

The Australian farming industry is having a bad enough time as it is with drought, floods, etc without spreading unsubstantiated rumours.

My post was addressed to Alexa btw.

The rules and regulations are set by state governments.

Is the rise in veganism/vegetarianism potentially increasing global warming? One of the major contributors to current earth warming is said to be methane.
Every time I try to increase my vegetable intake, my methane output increases pro-rate

Yes, isn't it cows bums that produce the most methane?

I know a few people who produce quite a lot of hot air.

Jalima1108 - yes, it’s deliberate to make scar tissue and is called mulesing.
Some people won’t buy wool from sheep treated this way but there is a fierce debate in the industry about it.

www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2017-08-09/italian-buyers-frustrated-by-ongoing-mulesed-wool-problem/8744944

New Zealand, I think, has banned it now. I also think they were the first country to do so.

Mulesing is removing skin, not chunks of flesh and is done as a last resort with analgesia.
If they didn't do that in an infected sheep then the sheep would die very slowly and in agony.

However, if better treatments are now available then presumably the practice will die out.

All this stuff is just abhorrent! (My predictive text wrote 'croissant'!)
Why the bloody hell can't animals be treated with kindness and respect?
Its not much to ask.

It's not kind to let them die in agony unless treated though.

I don’t know a lot about sheep farming but DO buy a lot of merino yarn so have looked into this a bit Jalima1108 - I read that anaesthesia isn’t generally used, but there was a study in 2013 into whether it would improve outcomes of lambs if it was. The research paper was in a veterinary publication - I think I found it in “PubMed.” They concluded that an anaesthetic was a good idea and the lambs improved and recovered quicker with it. If I remember rightly this was using a gel form.

Even Australia has decided muelsing needs phasing out as there are other, more humane ways of preventing fly strike problems. Can’t remember when this will be complete but it was relatively soon.

No one really wants to see animals suffer so clearly this is a win-win.